What period would the 'trade knives' fit in to?

[crockett]

My reply isn't directed to anyone, just a general observation. I'll state how I see things.
To me, when I hear "trade knife" I think of a very specific item, made in France or England and shipped to fur trading posts for the purpose of trading with the NDN tribes. Later, during th mountain man era, also sold to mountain men. These knives were ordered by the thousands by the various fur trading companies and the manufacture done in Europe, mostly Sheffield during the later periods.
THEN, there is a crude, primitive, backwoods type knife made in North America and a "one of a kind" item and of no particular pattern. These were made and used primarily by those frontiersmen of European anchestry. Although after 1840, the two knives made by James Baker would be a good example.
On this second, rustic type knife- I'm not sure there is a proper term for item but if there is, I'd like to know it. In any event, these second type, primitive knives, to me- I don't think of them as trade knives.

 

[De_LaLonde]

Who cares what it's called as long as it's sharp! :thumbsup:

 

[satx78247]

To All,

I wonder how early that US-made trade/utility/hunting/kitchen knives were common in "wholesale lots".

According to THE WEEKLY MESSENGER of Captain Shreve's Port (Now: Shreveport, LA), a Charles Emory Dawkins in the fall of 1828 was "offering fine quality trade, butchers and other useful knives to the trade, by the dozen or greater quantity at quite attractive prices."
(I wonder if Dawkins had "a factory", in any real sense of that word?)

Noah Southwick's (of San Felipe, TX) "knife factory" of the TX Revolution period has been discussed elsewhere on the forum. - He claimed to have at least 3 full-time employees working at his "knife factory".

yours, satx

 

[LRB]

I suspect those were English knives, but you'd get a better answer from LaBonte. Ever heard of that Crockett?

 

[satx78247]

Given how UNPOPULAR that GB was with the Spanish & French citizens (and after AWI, with many of the American patriots) of early LA, IF Dawkins was importing (rather than manufacturing) knives, I would GUESS that they didn't come from the UK.

Inasmuch as "making" of simple/cheap knives isn't a very complicated craft, I see NO reason that tradesmen in the West could not have been making lots of cheap knives for the local trade, rather than importing them. - Further, given the cost of purchase, the customs/import taxes and the "time lag from order to delivery", making cheap knives for the local customers might well have looked like "an attractive business opportunity" to many a tradesman/blacksmith.
(Even "in the wilds of" AR, IT, LA, NM & TX coopers, tinsmiths, jewelers, gunsmiths, blacksmiths, saddlers, wagon-builders, furniture-makers and other craftsmen had the ABILITY to make complicated objects for local customers. WHY would making knives for local sale be any different than the other crafts?)

You might want to read/re-read my post # 1345152 above. - The oldest "trade knife" that I've seen is Spanish-made & likely 16th century, when LA/TX was a part of Imperial Spain.

yours, satx

 

[George]

To me, when I hear "trade knife" I think of a very specific item, made in France or England and shipped to fur trading posts for the purpose of trading with the NDN tribes...... These knives were ordered by the thousands by the various fur trading companies and the manufacture done in Europe, mostly Sheffield during the later periods

It's certainly true that trade knives were bought by and shipped to the fur companies/trading posts, but that's not the only place they were sold. In the east, at least in the 18th century, there were a lot of individual Indian traders who bought the knives, and Indian trading goods of all types were made available to them by merchants.

The Pennsylvania Gazette
January 22, 1767
MEASE and MILLER,... HAVE just imported ----Also an assortment of Indian goods, which they will sell exceeding low, among which are, best French matchcoats, blue, red and black strouds, purple and white napt halfthicks, scarlet, rose, star and striped gartering, bed lace, taffety ribbons, vermilion, 3 qr. and 7 eights garlix, Canada guns, cutteau and Indian knives, F and FF gunpowder, bar Lead, &c. &c.

The South Carolina Gazette
August 23, 1773
BRIAN CAPE, Has just imported in the ship Palas.... Fleams; Pocket Knives, ”¦. Pen Knives, with 1, 2 and 4 Blades, Trade Knives and Forks;

Spence

 

[colmoultrie]

Given how UNPOPULAR that GB was with the Spanish & French citizens (and after AWI, with many of the American patriots) of early LA, IF Dawkins was importing (rather than manufacturing) knives, I would GUESS that they didn't come from the UK.

Inasmuch as "making" of simple/cheap knives isn't a very complicated craft, I see NO reason that tradesmen in the West could not have been making lots of cheap knives for the local trade, rather than importing them. - Further, given the cost of purchase, the customs/import taxes and the "time lag from order to delivery", making cheap knives for the local customers might well have looked like "an attractive business opportunity" to many a tradesman/blacksmith.
(Even "in the wilds of" AR, IT, LA, NM & TX coopers, tinsmiths, jewelers, gunsmiths, blacksmiths, saddlers, wagon-builders, furniture-makers and other craftsmen had the ABILITY to make complicated objects for local customers. WHY would making knives for local sale be any different than the other crafts?)

yours, satx

I'm not sure that it's all that simple to make knives, given that a manufacturer in the early 19th century would generally have to start with pig iron, or VERY expensive steel at best. It's a lot different from starting from a steel blank, a saw blade or a file today. The US did not start widely manufacturing items until the Napoleonic Wars and the War of 1812 cut off cheaper supplies from Europe. Since Sheffield tradesmen churned out knives by the literal barrel-full, they were generally cheaper and higher-quality than homemade/domestic products, at least for the average man.

The author Bernard Levine discounted the theory that homespun knives were commonly made from old files in the 18th or 19th centuries: Files and Knives

Although Britain was not too popular in the US after the Revolution, British products were; Britain was the US's largest trading partner, and a majority of manufactured goods in the Confederation and Federalist Eras came from Britain. Homespun goods could not be manufactured in quantity or price (or generally quality) to compete with the goods Britain was "dumping" on the US market, thanks to its start in the Industrial Revolution. That generally held true until the Embargo Act of 1807 and then the War of 1812.

 

[LRB]

As best I know, John Russell formed the first American company to produce trade type cheap knives in quantity around 1834. Before that, it was pretty much an import situation, and mostly from England.

 

[Rod Lassey]

Just an observation on trade, but as I go through the Chouteau Papers on microfilm, one thing I noticed was that, after the fall of New France in 1763, the French traders in Louisiana almost immediately opened up trade relations with the new British regime at Michilimackinac. I suspect that this was a 'backdoor' that avoided the spanish import/export duties that would occur from shipments sent via New Orleans.

This became so entrenched that the British imports through Michilimackinac were the standard for supplying St. Louis and the rest of Louisiana even after the Louisiana Purchase. The letters from various fur traders following Jefferson's Embargo Acts are very interesting---Manuel Lisa, of the St. Louis Missouri Fur Company made his annual trip to Michilimackinac in 1810, and found the Great Lakes crawling with US customs agents, to the exent that he sadly wrote his partners back in St. Louis that he "...couldn't get so much as a needle..." through the Great Lakes.

When it came to the fur trade, those guys didn't let any distaste of the British goverment stop them from trading with the Brits. And the Indians most definitely wanted high-quality British knives, guns, and blankets over any other sources. A major downfall of the US Factory system was the lower quality US made goods that the gov't factories were forced to try to sell.

Rod

 

[satx78247]

Pardon me for pointing out that I said NOTHING whatever about "files".

As we know that some fairly sophisticated firearms, swords, fighting knives, agricultural equipment & particularly wagons (Wagons & agricultural implements are relatively difficult to make & require a LOT of quality steel.) were being built in AR, IT, LA, NM & TX, where did they get the steel for those products, if we are to believe your claim that good steel was rare or too expensive to use?

Do you think that Southwick's claims of having a successful knife factory during the TX Revolutionary period are false?

just my opinion, satx

 

[tenngun]

Yes it was a funny thing about relationships between trade and governments. We would have had a hard time fighting our revolution except for the goods still smuggled from britian to america. An active smuggiling trade kept up through all the anglo french wars. Even going back to classical times Pontus rented war ships to rome while ponts and rome were at war, that rome needed in a nother theater aginst crete. At lasts johnny's tobbacco for billy's coffee.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Tenngun and colmoultrie are both correct, to the degree that British made products didn't become less popular just because the British may have. I'll also point out that SATX is also right in that many smiths across the entire country, and particularly the south were making knives, swords and axes on a regular basis. It would be interesting to know where knife smiths like Smithwick got his steel and iron but sadly, he didn't say. Remember that through out the on-again/off-again alliance across Europe during this entire era, Spain changed sides several times depending on how France & England were getting along and how either effected her own purposes. Never forget the amount of goods and materials that came in through Mexico and across Texas(when she was part of Spain and later when she wasn't) then as well as a half century later during a later blockade.

America and Canada were so friendly and such dedicated trade partners that the New England states actually held a preliminary secession convention during the War of 1812, that's how strongly they resented the trade restrictions brought on by "Mr. Madison's War"...and never, ever underestimate the inventiveness of dedicated smugglers! :thumbsup:

 

[satx78247]

IF you are primarily talking about the area east of the Mississippi River, I agree.
"Out west" the situation was quite different, from what my considerable reading indicates.
For starters, "out there" the Spanish & French had a more than a century "running start" over the UK & USA.

For one thing, in those areas anything marked "Toledo" was presumed to be "of excellent quality" by non-English speaking North Americans, though goods marked "Sheffield" or "Toledo" were just as likely to be "shoddy" or of inferior quality as "good" or "excellent".

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

Toledo did have a big fan base in Spanish influenced areas until well into the 19th century, and for the most part, probably deserved it. "Sheffield" has always been popular though, as you say, between 1780 and 1820 it carried a negative connotation to many Americans, just because.

 

[satx78247]

YEP. 100%.

My point, such as it was, is that ANY marking on a blade says little/nothing about its quality.

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

Absolutely. Even the finest bladesmith can have a flaw he's totally unaware of. One of the few blade materials ever made that could pretty much be considered without flaws was that of the old Japanese blade makers, and that only because the steel had been folded, heated and hammered till there wasn't any possibility of a particle of bad pookie left in the steel. I got to see a modern recreation of the style done once, it's amazing to see the amount of work and expertise involved in the making of those gorgeous blades. To say it's "labor intensive" is like saying Mt. Saint Helen was a poof! :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[crockett]

Once again, my remarks are addressed to all. Thanks to George and SATX for the documentation. Documentation is all we really have to rely on, everything else is just "suppos'in". As I understand matters the first true knife factory in the US that turned out large numbers of fixed bladed knives was Russell/Green River. The 1834 factory made razors and scissors and burned down. The factory was rebuilt and there is SOME evidence a small order MIGHT have gone to the 1839 Rendezvous- based on a reference to a model number of an unknown and Russel having such a model number. Folding knives made in America on a factory basis didn't get underway until after 1840.
The fur trade out of New Orleans- not my area but when it was under Spanish Control, Spain wasn't that interested in the fur trade (to the best of my knowledge) and got two Brits from Canada to come down. There was an earier Missouri Fur Trade firm (not to be confused with Manual Lisa) and where they got the goods I don't know but I'd suspect (just guessing here) that the goods were English (since the two managers were English and the goods probably came from Canada). One such knife turned up at the Kansas Monument site worked by a Dr. Smith who (Carl P. Russell's book) said the knife looked to be of French or Spanish make. Spanish made knives came to N. Amer but where they ended up- I don't know. Carribean?
The idea that New Orlean trade goods arrived not by ship from Europe but rather took an incredibly round about route through Mackinaw and down the Mississippi. I'm pretty certain that was the standard route. Maybe Rod L has something on that.
On the UK Sheffield Connection. Sheffield was the leading manufacturer in the World. According to B. Levine over half the production was being shipped to North America (US/Canada) and during the War of 1812 Sheffield almost went broke due to the trade cut off.
Well, if no other term applies, for me, maybe if it was manufactured to a known pattern and in the thousands and shipped to N. amer- that is a trade knife and if it was made here in a black smith shop- in honor of M. Grant- just call it a homespun knife.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Given how UNPOPULAR that GB was with the Spanish & French citizens (and after AWI, with many of the American patriots) of early LA, IF Dawkins was importing (rather than manufacturing) knives, I would GUESS that they didn't come from the UK.

Wick's previous assessment didn't suggest a contradiction in your point. 1828 to the Texas Revolution is a mere 8 years, while the previous 45 years from the AWI to Mr. Dawkin's factory somebody was supplying the knives for the entire country. The cheapest steel was coming from England. Why do you assume that Dawkins was making knives from "scratch" instead of taking advantage of very inexpensive English steel billets, and having his three men fashion the billets into finished knives in his factory, and thus improving his profit margin? Sounds like a smart Texan to me, no?

LD

 

[Coot]

As a point of interest, US trade with Britain actually increased after the AWI as our population increased rapidly & westward expansion got int a higher gear. Britain was the leading edge of the industrial revolution & the high quality & low prices of British goods made them in high demand.

 

[Rod Lassey]

American made knives from British steel would be the best bet, for a domestic made knife. From what I've read, the US had a thriving industry in wrought iron, but not so much in steel. On the other hand, I've seen ship's manifests from England that were loaded with raw steel, bound for the US. Also, quite a bit of tin-plated sheet iron, for the US kettle industry.

Rod