powder storage

[Mr Hawken]

are 4l plastic milk jugs safe to store powder in? how long would it last? its getting hard to buy powder and i might have found a source to buy it bulk.

 

[roundball]

are 4l plastic milk jugs safe to store powder in? how long would it last? its getting hard to buy powder and i might have found a source to buy it bulk.

A number of powders are sold in plastic containers so I assume it would be OK...personally I'd rather see it in metal powder cans for a little more physical protection.

But if you use plastic gallon jugs you might want to then store them inside something else like a large hard plastic insulated picnic cooler for added physical protection around them.

From everything I've come to know about blackpowder storage, if you keep it dry and out of any extreme heat environments it'll essentially last lifetimes...at least for decades.

 

[walruskid1]

keep the jugs out of the light as some plastics degrade in sunlight.

 

[Juice Jaws]

I would say no. Milk jugs are not as thick as the plastic jugs that powder comes in. Keep the powder in the cans that it comes in.
juice jaws

 

[sagebrush2401]

I use 1.5 liter Listerine bottles for lead shot. I have one that has had shot in it for about 18 years. They have worked very well for me.. :thumbsup: Good Luck Sage

 

[spottedpony]

I dont know if its a problem or not, but i'd wonder about if there could be some reaction with light? ive never seen a powder storage canister that allowed light through it.
Perhaps a trip to the local hardware store and see whats available in metal containers.

 

[Coot]

I would suggest that powder be left in the unopened manufacturers container untill it is needed for use. Why expose it to moisture if you do not need to? The original container is designed to protect the powder well. Most "bulk" shipments are in groups of small containers & not a single 25# cannister. Goex comes in 1# cans which I then put in mil. surplus 30 or 50 cal ammo boxes with good rubber seals. Two air seals against moisture & two metal skins (& the ammo boxes are tough). Then store the boxes in a cool dry area. Another thread suggested an old chest freezer with a hasp & padlock added as a good container for large quantities (cannon shooters or clubs).

 

[arquebus]

I recall the Curtis & Harvey black powder we used to buy back in the 1980s was in a white opaque canister, somewhat thicker material than a milk jug but about the same color.

 

[Mad Monk]

Keep the powder in the cans or plastic bottles it comes in if purchased that way.

Thin wall plastic containers may be OK in warm weather. Bump or drop one in cold weather and you may be in for a surprise when they split or pieces break away. Avoid glass containers for the same reason. They break if bumped hard or dropped.

The plastic bottles used to package Swiss and Schuetzen are made from a polymer that will take abuse even at low temperature. This is also true for the plastic bottles the bp subs come in.

A few years back there was some work done comparing what happens if you get accidental ignition in a case of cans of bp or in a case of bottles of bp. The plastic bottles passed the test with a bit of a bonus. The bottles would split along the mold lines if the powder ignited in them while sealed. This splitting at the bottle mold lines reduced the distance the burning powder was thrown compared to the distance seen with can packaging.

The thing about light going through a clear or hazy container degrading the powder is not true. This came out of some old incidents where bp was packed in sealed clear glass bottles square in shape. The curved edges of the bottles acted as a magnifying glass, heating the powder against the inside of the curve.

If black powder, during storage in a sealed container, is subjected to temperatures above 180 F there can be a problem. Above 180 F a small portion of the sulfur goes directly from a solid to a gas without going through the liquid phase. Sulfur vapors are chemically active and begin a chemical change in the powder. The powder will steadily weaken in strength. Given a large mass of powder, as in a storage magazine there could be an explosion. Such an incident was investigated during WWII. But in small containers you would not see the explosion. Just a bunch of powder that would be weak in the gun and foul the bore badly.

 

[bpbrs]

Personally I don't recomend storing powder in a 4L container.
That is a tad large... :shocked2:
I'd store in the manufactures container and follow the directions n the side of the can.

For more information on; Buying in bluk, check the archives on this forum as this question is asked every few days.

Good luck,

BPB

 

[Dickert54cal]

NO WAY!!! Why do you think black powder is sold in metal cans? Plastic IMHO is not good for anything that can ignite----Plastics attract static electricity...Static electricity can spark...Sparks and black powder arent real good togeter unless you are using a flintlock. :hatsoff:

 

[Bob Riegl]

:bow: Not to be disagreeable or anything like that my friend---however the BP Industry ran a large series of tests on the use of plastic containers for BP storage and found that static electricity was not a problem---for what it's worth. I wouldn't feel safe with the thin plastic of milk containers---however Vinegar is sold in "gallon?" jugs and this plastic is a lot thicker and might be more serviceable. Any amount of powder over 2# should be stored in a proper magazine---Cabelas sells one in their shooting catalogue. :hatsoff:

 

[mike alexandre]

Do you have any more info on exactly who ran these tests please.

 

[Mad Monk]

I have copies of the test reports but cannot discuss them.

Only two brands of black powder come in tin cans these days. Those being GOEX and KIK out of Slovenia. The only reason that KIK uses tin cans is that GOEx had them make some small-arms powder back in 2000 and wanted it in tin cans.

For years, WANO, in Germany packed their small-arms powders in one Kg plastic bottles. Since at least the mid-1980's. A bp plant in Spain uses plastic bottles for a number of years.

The SNPE plant in France used some plastic bottles and some milk cartons, the cardboard kind.

Basically GOEX is the only one still using tin cans and KIK only because GOEX had insisted on it in 2000 and since they spent a bunch of money designing the cans and logos they stuck with the cans for a more recent shipment to another powder distributor in the U.S.

Going back around 30 years we had C&H in tin cans with plastic spouts in the cans.

 

[Mad Monk]

Time to post this stuff again.

Blaster's Handbook
E.I. duPont de Nemours and Company
15th Ed.
Wilmington, DE

Chapt 3, Black Powder
Properties:

Sensitiveness.
All black powders are relatively insensitive to shock and friction.

Ignition.
Any treatment that produces a spark or quantity of heat of sufficient temperature will ignite black powder. Black powders will ignite instantly at about 300 C (572 F). They should not be exposed for long periods at temperatures above 100 C (212 F). Ignition can be effected by any flame, spark, hot wire or hot surface, and by blasting accessories such as squibs, electrical squibs and igniters, electric blasting caps and detonating cord.

Glaze.
Used where clean, free flowing and non-lumping is desired. Glaze omitted when further processing is required. THe glaze does not improve the effeciency of black powder nor does it provide water resistance.

 

[Mad Monk]

Regarding electrostatic ignition.

Chemical Abstracts
American Chemical Society
Eschenbach Printing Company
Easton, PA
Vol. 8, 1914
Page 1670

Investigations on Electrostatic Conditions in the Sifting of Black Powder at the Kockelscheur Powder Factory

J.P. Manternach. 2ges.
Schiess-Sprengstoffw. 9, 41-45, 68-70.

As a result of two explosions which occured during the sifting of black powder, an investigation was made to determine the intensity of the static charges generated in the process, the possibility of ignition of powder by such charges, and means of preventing this condition. The electrometer of H.W. Schmidt was used in this work. It was found that the condition of the air around the machine increased 3 to 4 fold while the machines were being operated, and that the conditions of the atmosphere were favorable for the formation of static charges. Experiments showed that the explosive (grains of powder) could not be ignited by sparks up to 6 cm. long from an electrostatic machine. With induction sparks of greater intensity, no ignitions were obtained with a primary circuit of 1/2-7 amp. and 4-16 V., but with 8 amp. and 88 V. ignition of the explosive resulted. Proper circulation of air in the sifting room and effective grounding of all machines and appliances constitute the best means of avoiding conditions which might produce dangerous conditions.

 

[Mad Monk]

Some other points to ponder in this.
Man's clothing will generate static charges in cool dry weather.

The German govt. Spandau black powder plant, as a safety measure, covered the floors of their wheel-mill houses with sheep skins. Sheep skins with the fleece still attached. At the end of each shift these were removed for cleaning and clean sheep skins laid around the mill.

Up until the time between WWI and WWII almost all bp plants screened powder using silk screens. The old Hercules info gives the screen sizes and mandated silk screens.

Up into the early 1900's the bp plants in England would clean up (sock) their powders by tumbling the powder grains in "reels" lined with cotton muslin. Different types of powder called for different weave cotton muslin.
When the English had to drop bp from one floor level in a plant to a lower level they did so using chutes sewn up from heavy cotton muslin. The powder was simply dumped down the cloth chute.

The S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory from 1999 unti the end of production in 2001 would place large squares of cotton muslin in with the powder during the glazing operation. The cotton muslin squares tumbled in with the powder grains and picked up the fine dust created during the polishing/glazing operation.

 

[Dickert54cal]

This is a direct quote from another forum from a friend. I dont think he would mind me posting it here if it were to save someones arm,leg, or worse. I grew up next to one of the worlds best testing facilities for explosives....heading this was my best friends father.....Along with the quote at the bottom I can attest to another expert ---maybe one of the top in the world who will ask you----Why would you take any chace when you have other safer means of storage available to you??? My friends " "
"OK. I ususally don't talk work on here but now you've hit part of my job for the Army. I serve as the safety officer for the US Army Heritage and Education Center for Living History and I'm one of two former trainers/authors for the Historic Weapons Safety Manual for the Commonwealth.
First, go to the ATF website and look up regulations for the storage and transport of sporting grade powders. There is lots of good info., like type B magazine specs and storage recommendations.

Here are the practices I follow.

1. I store in the original cans. They are designed to unravel on explosion and not frag. I know because I've tested hundreds of them. DO NOT USE PLASTIC OR VYNIL BAGS, both can conduct static electricty and can blow a charge.

2. I store my cans in an epoxy painted corregated paper box with simple clasp locks and handles. The box is clearly labeled explosives. I keep all horns and cans in this box in a shed outside of my home. The reason I use cardboard and epoxy paint is that it cannot conduct a charge and the cardboard only burns upon explosion, it does not frag. DO NOT USE AMMO CANS! These were designed to keep smokeless powder cartridges protected and in good condition. They are not designed to take the stresses of blackpowder. They can also frag.

3. Keep your powder horn full or near full at all times. The most dangerous powder horn is one with dusted powder or just a small amount. The ability for the powder to expand in the space of anempty horn before the explosion is whjat causes the bad shrapnel effect. We've tested this at Indiantown gap and Aberdeen."

 

[Rebel]

You should read what Mad Monk says about this subject. He is an authority on this.

 

[roundball]

Any amount of powder over 2# should be stored in a proper magazine

Not wanting to be disagreeable either...I am just :shocked2: at your reference to 2 pounds though...I think a lot of traditionalists walk around with a pound of it in their powder horn.

ATF has no requirement and does not even recommend anything special for up to 50lbs stored in a single family dwelling...only after that do they require a magazine.

When I have a case of Goex arrive, I just set it on the floor of a closet in a spare bedroom in our climate controlled house, in the same cardboard shipping carton it just traveled hundreds of miles in, and nothing in the world is going to happen to it sitting there undisturbed and it's not going to ignite by itself of course.

My .02 cents