Help! Ramrod End?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Hey

So I shot my new 20 gauge trade gun the other day and while very nice, I was using loose tow wadding and found I was having issues using the 3/8” ramrod on my gun. Here’s a photo of the end of my ramrod. The other end is tapered to fit a coil tow worm:

As you can see the tip of the rod is just flat and is much smaller than the bore. I had issues where the thin rod would just shove the wad of tow to the side halfway down the bore, or would pierce through the wadding. It was quite the chore to get it stuffed down properly.

I imagine the tip needs to be closer to bore diameter to work properly? I do not want a modern jag because I strive to shoot in the period correct manner. How were the ends of the ramrods on original trade guns? Any advice on what to do?

Thanks all!

Smokey

 

[French Colonial]

Hey

So I shot my new 20 gauge trade gun the other day and while very nice, I was using loose tow wadding and found I was having issues using the 3/8” ramrod on my gun. Here’s a photo of the end of my ramrod. The other end is tapered to fit a coil tow worm:

View attachment 228637

As you can see the tip of the rod is just flat and is much smaller than the bore. I had issues where the thin rod would just shove the wad of tow to the side halfway down the bore, or would pierce through the wadding. It was quite the chore to get it stuffed down properly.

I imagine the tip needs to be closer to bore diameter to work properly? I do not want a modern jag because I strive to shoot in the period correct manner. How were the ends of the ramrods on original trade guns? Any advice on what to do?

Thanks all!

Smokey

Get one of the flared ends from TOTW and fit it to the end of your rod, it appears you have plenty of room for one.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=RT-20-6

 

[Notchy Bob]

I don't know about trade guns in general. I do believe it was typical for wooden ramrods to be tapered, with a swell at the proximal end. I don't know if separate metal tips were typical, but consider this old Northwest gun, which was once one of Frederic Remington's studio props and is now in the Buffalo Bill Center of the West:


Note the ramrod tip.

Here is a photo of my two Northwest guns:


The gun on top is from North Star West, and the factory ramrod is in it. The second from the top is a Caywood Northwest gun. I didn't like the ramrod that came with it (shown on the bottom of the photo), so I made my own tapered hickory rod. The Caywood is a 24 gauge (roughly .58 caliber) and the rod is pared down from a 1/2" hickory dowel, preserving the full diameter at the driving end. I asked the late Dan Putz, maker of the best hickory dowels for ramrods, if he could make a few dowels for me in 9/16" diameter, for my smoothbores. He responded that I was the first and only person to have ever asked that question, and his answer was a courteous no, because he was not tooled up for it.

Here is another view of these rods. don't worry... The guns are unloaded!


On the left is the original Caywood rod, then the Caywood gun with my homemade rod, and on the right is the NSW gun with the factory rod.

Here is an original smoothbore by John Derr. Not a trade musket, but a rifle-mounted smoothbore:



The ramrod tip is an old rimfire shell case of unknown caliber (maybe a .41?) pinned on with an old-timey square brad. This tip, and possibly the ramrod itself, are later additions, as the gun is still in original flintlock. The last owner to use it regularly apparently did not worry about matching the era of his ramrod tip to his gun.

So, taking what I know, and what I believe to be true, an enlarged brass ramrod tip might not be inappropriate. Muzzleloader Builders Supply might be your best source for a more or less correct one. Personally, I prefer tapered wood rods, with a threaded tip on the distal end, and I would like to think that replacement ramrods made in the field were tapered, although I can't confirm that.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[PathfinderNC]

@Notchy Bob- not to detour from your great Post, but looking at the Northwest Trade Gun photo you posted (one of F. Remington’s props)- dang look at the thick web on that stock! It is more than any I have seen before. Perhaps it was a common design for these guns? Just wanted to note that.

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Notchy Bob- not to detour from your great Post, but looking at the Northwest Trade Gun photo you posted (one of F. Remington’s props)- dang look at the thick web on that stock! It is more than any I have seen before. Perhaps it was a common design for these guns? Just wanted to note that.

Man, you have a good eye! I had not noticed that before, but I would agree with you.

That is one of the later flintlock Northwest guns… enlarge the image, and you can see the reinforced double-throated cock, and the heavy, cast trigger. I think the later ones may have been less refined, less svelte than the early ones.

Where is @Rob M. when we need him? I’ll bet he could tell us.

Thanks for your comments!

Notchy Bob

 

[Rob M.]

You rang ?! LOL.

 

[Notchy Bob]

You rang ?! LOL.

Hey, Rob!

We were hoping you might comment on original trade gun ramrod tips, and on early versus late Northwest gun architecture. Please see @PathfinderNC ’s post, above.

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

 

[Rob M.]

Funny you mention the " thickness " of later NW guns . Your exactly right . The NW trade gun was a distinct pattern for such a long period of time but it does have its differences over the years , some obvious , some very subtle . The later guns are thicker and less refined than early example .. Why ? I'm not sure . I could be because they were used on horse back more often than the 18 th or early 19 th century but there's a good chance it was because of competition too. There were a LOT of different fur trade companies from say approx. 1830 till the end ....and the name of the game was make the product faster and cheaper than the competition . ....or a combination of those two factors . But the guns become thicker , clunky , less refined , less carving and side plates some times left surface mounted instead of inlet half way ... All these things are cost cutting techniques to make the gun cheaper .

 

[Rob M.]

Ramrod tips eh ... Well ...u fortunately so few examples of original ones survived . My limited knowledge in this is the tapered ramrod was an early attribute and then they were putting brass tips on straight ramrods on later examples . The time periods for the change are unclear though , sorry . I'll try to dredge up some pics . I do have an example of an early Trade gun with tapered ramrod but its pretty early ,like probably 1750-60 period ....bit early for this discussion . On my guns I always make the tapered ramrod as I really like it ,not just for its looks but in its use .

 

[Rob M.]

Early , tapered end ....other end was probably bare , for worm to go on it

 

[Rob M.]

It would seem , rough estimation , by the war of 1812 , English makers had dine away with the tapered ramrod in favor of straight R.R.s with tips ....it could be even earlier though ...Willets trade gun 1813-14 period here

 

[Rob M.]

Barnett 1838

 

[Rob M.]

Tryon 1840-50s

 

[Rob M.]

How I like to do my guns ....tapered ramrod , threaded brass tip on small end for attachments . The large end is good for grasping the rod to pull it out and great for loading g , esp. shot wads ...

 

[Kansas Jake]

Thanks Rob.

 

[Rob M.]

Hey

So I shot my new 20 gauge trade gun the other day and while very nice, I was using loose tow wadding and found I was having issues using the 3/8” ramrod on my gun. Here’s a photo of the end of my ramrod. The other end is tapered to fit a coil tow worm:

View attachment 228637

As you can see the tip of the rod is just flat and is much smaller than the bore. I had issues where the thin rod would just shove the wad of tow to the side halfway down the bore, or would pierce through the wadding. It was quite the chore to get it stuffed down properly.

I imagine the tip needs to be closer to bore diameter to work properly? I do not want a modern jag because I strive to shoot in the period correct manner. How were the ends of the ramrods on original trade guns? Any advice on what to do?

Thanks all!

Smokey

I got this tip if you want it ...its for 20 ga. The O.D. on ramrod side is .425 ....ID is .345

 

[Rob M.]

Thanks Rob.

No problem , my favorite subject . Sorry so vague but there are so few known facts . Everything is kind of a guesstimate taken from what evidence and examples we have left .

 

[Rob M.]

Always like this pic as a good example of early and later trade guns . the top one I made for my buddy Tommy and its a typical early NW gun , say 1750-1780 ....the bottom , cherry stock , one I made for me and its typical later style , large trigger guard , diff. T.G. finials , sharp bend B.P. , absence of carvings ...

 

[BoomStick]

That flared bulb (I think Track calls it a tulip) end is a good choice, function and looks.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Flared end is a must. Get one in the gauge of your gun and you won't have any more issues.