Flintlocks and Black Powder

[Britsmoothy]

This is from Swiss Powder.
Is there anything else I need to prove to you?

View attachment 112330

Nope, don't see it, sorry.
I'll tell you what I do see.
I see far more risk for me and other car drivers on the road. I see evidence of increased cancer cases because of experts messing with chemicals, herbicides, pesticides and and releasing radio active material all around this globe. Not to mention the bloody virus!
But I don't see folk blowing them selves up with 4f .
Now, if it helps you get through the day in your belief about 4f is bad juju inside a gun then so be it but please please refrain from telling me or others that we have it wrong.
But! By all means find us evidence of, your words! " Damage or injury".

 

[Britsmoothy]

Oh and by the way Jim.
Swiss 4f is recommended by swiss powder as a main charge! Doh

 

[Grenadier1758]

This is the best that I can do for source documentation of the use if 4f powder as a main charge.

In the first edition of the Lyman "Black Powder Loading Manual" published in 1975 listed some revolver loads with pressure readings in Lead Units of Pressure. In the second edition of the loading manual, there are no revolver loadings of 4f powder except for use as priming.

A quote from an entry by me from June 2020.
Jun 21, 2020

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The Lyman manual, "Lyman Black Powder Handbook", has pressure numbers for several open top revolvers modified for pressure readings. These revolvers were an 1851 Lyman Navy in 36 caliber, a Lyman 1860 Army in 44 caliber. Pictured with the Army revolver was a Lyman 1858 Remington revolver. Velocity tests were also conducted on a Lyman Baby Dragoon in 31 caliber. No pressure results were recorded. Velocity tests were done on a Ruger Old Army, but it was not modified for pressure readings. Test loads for the ROA did include 4fg powder and 3fg. There are no tables for a Lyman Walker revolver.

It is interesting that Pressure readings for the Lyman 1851 Navy Revolver are recorded as 8,600 Lead Units of Pressure (LUP) with 26 grains of 3fg and 8,820 LUP using 4fg. (Page 72). When I looked at rifle data for the 36 caliber rifle (all loads were reported with 3fg Gerhardt - Owen, GOEX predecessor), the LUP readings for 40 grains of 3fg in the 20" barrel were 9,800, 28" barrel 9,000, 32" barrel 9,600 37" barrel 9,400 and in the 43" barrel 8,460. This would imply that the 4fg might produce similar pressures in the rifle with 26 grains of 4fg powder that were produced with 40 grains of 3fg.

That's the data in the Lyman book.

Takeaway: The Lyman data for the revolvers has very little difference in LUP for 3fg and 4fg powder. There is a lot of difference in LUP between the pistol data and the rifle data. Make your own decisions.

The Lyman data (From about 1975) for the use of 4fg is listed for revolvers. Pressure was consistent with the safety limits for the revolvers used up to a Colt open top 1860 44 caliber. The Second edition of the loading manual published in about 1984 does not have data for 4fg powder except for flintlock pan priming.

Historical revolver cartridges have been taken apart and the powder is consistent with 4fg.

The finer the grain the faster it burns and generates more pressure. For our use, loads with 3fg or 2fg in our rifles will make little difference from a safety perspective.

 

[Jim Evans]

Oh and by the way Jim.
Swiss 4f is recommended by swiss powder as a main charge! Doh

Show me

 

[david w]

Oh and by the way Jim.
Swiss 4f is recommended by swiss powder as a main charge! Doh

You are free to use whatever you want. Just because you use it is no reason everyone else should. On the Swiss site, 4f powder is clearly stated as for "pan use only".
Would I use 4f in my .62 caliber rifle? Hell no.

I have used 4f in my .36 caliber Bedford County rifle, but it was custom made with a Hoppy Hopkins barrel.
https://schuetzenpowder.com/swiss-black-powder/

 

[Crow-Feather]

Nope, don't see it, sorry.
I'll tell you what I do see.
I see far more risk for me and other car drivers on the road. I see evidence of increased cancer cases because of experts messing with chemicals, herbicides, pesticides and and releasing radio active material all around this globe. Not to mention the bloody virus!
But I don't see folk blowing them selves up with 4f .
Now, if it helps you get through the day in your belief about 4f is bad juju inside a gun then so be it but please please refrain from telling me or others that we have it wrong.
But! By all means find us evidence of, your words! " Damage or injury".

BELOW IS THE SWISS BLACK POWDER SITE. TO THE RIGHT OF THE POWDER CONTAINER IS THE "DESCRIPTION" PLEASE READ THE DECSRIPTION. THEN STOP TRYING TO GET SOMEONE HURT WITH YOUR STUPID PICTURES.


Swiss Black Powder 4 Fg (FFFFg) - mainepowderhouse.com

 

[Des52]

I would not do this.

I have been doing this for 50 plus years. Where is your proof that I should stop doing what I have done for that long. And yes I have had my .36 percussion that long. Use what you feel safe with but don't tell me what to do!

 

[Crow-Feather]

Nope, don't see it, sorry.
I'll tell you what I do see.
I see far more risk for me and other car drivers on the road. I see evidence of increased cancer cases because of experts messing with chemicals, herbicides, pesticides and and releasing radio active material all around this globe. Not to mention the bloody virus!
But I don't see folk blowing them selves up with 4f .
Now, if it helps you get through the day in your belief about 4f is bad juju inside a gun then so be it but please please refrain from telling me or others that we have it wrong.
But! By all means find us evidence of, your words! " Damage or injury".

Well Brit, YOU HAVE IT WRONG and you are looking a bit outside the realm of normal thinking. Let it go and keep thoughts so adequately proven wrong to thyself please.

 

[Erwan]

- Flintlocks and Black Powder

I did say that the Swiss N°1(4Fg) is not so good for a full load (I mean the choice), but it is perfectly usable in any type of arm : the charge will just lack oxygen between the grains and the powder will be a little more irregular and faster (more lively when ignited), but it is a shooting and hunting powder: it is written on it, and I have extensively tested it without swelling or bursting a barrel....
- https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/attachments/4fg-jpg.112002/
Discuss about danger of that powder don't have any sens : I use this, my wife use this, and we have all our fingers in good condition since 50 years of use (50 years ago we didn't use Swiss powder but only French)...

 

[Erwan]

Duplicate post, sorry.

 

[Mark Herman]

Jim, nice try. Arguing with fools is a losing situation. I hope we don't read about them after they've proven they were wrong. Just sign me off.

 

[French Colonial]

People wonder how we go from freedom to living in a nanny state.
I think it has something to do with grown men acting like Karen’s and trying to tell others how to live.

I would be willing to bet Britsmothy has sent more 4F down the bores of his smoothbores than the Karens have 2F.

“But it won’t work!!!”

It has, It does, It will. Get over it.

 

[Brokennock]

People wonder how we go from freedom to living in a nanny state.
I think it has something to do with grown men acting like Karen’s and trying to tell others how to live.

I would be willing to bet Britsmothy has sent more 4F down the bores of his smoothbores than the Karens have 2F.

“But it won’t work!!!”

It has, It does, It will. Get over it.

Amen

 

[Brokennock]

Well Brit, YOU HAVE IT WRONG and you are looking a bit outside the realm of normal thinking. Let it go and keep thoughts so adequately proven wrong to thyself please.

keep thoughts so adequately proven wrong to thyself please.

they've proven they were wrong.

What proof? None of you have proven a damn thing.
You are the one's telling people what to do and what not to do.
Neither Britsmoothy or myself nor anyone else who is asking you for examples of damage done by 4f Asa main charge, gas told anyone they have to use it too.

Show us the damage, show us the injury. Otherwise stop telling us to be quiet and shut the heck up yourself.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well Brit, YOU HAVE IT WRONG and you are looking a bit outside the realm of normal thinking. Let it go and keep thoughts so adequately proven wrong to thyself please.

Homosexuality is now the new normal. I am glad to not be normal and crumple to peer pressure!
Proven wrong you say, where?
You are the one that can not prove anything.
People like you can't cope when your blind faith on this subject is called out! It has, the belief 4f is dangerous as a main charge, no backbone and neither do the jelly legs folk that chant the mantra such as your self. Not my problem.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Jim, nice try. Arguing with fools is a losing situation. I hope we don't read about them after they've proven they were wrong. Just sign me off.

I'm not arguing, I, like always, reasonably ask for evidence of its destructive power.
It is your peers sir that get their panties knotted.
Not me, I know the truth and the truth pokes holes in all you and your peers theories!
A theory has to be ;
a, observable.
b, be repeatable.
c, be measured or recorded.
So please, in order to correct me or save me from my foolishness provide me ( and others) the facts that clearly shifts you and your peers beliefs to actual facts.

 

[Archer 756]

BOOM, Just blown myself up been shooting 40 plus years with small cal. too this day never had any problem as I said and so has others listen to those whom have NO EXPERIENCE and one will be just like those whom listen to what our Government claims for ALL to follow.

 

[Patched]

I read all 4 pages…and (after 47 years and 10 muzzleloaders later) the one thing I’m certain of is this;

Inhaling even trace amounts of black powder smoke combined with on-line forum participation creates some of the most astounding worthless wastes of many a pilgrim’s time.

Einstein said, “The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.”

 

[david w]

I wish everyone should just calm down. If you think 4f is ok for the main charge, then by golly, USE IT! If you think otherwise, then DON"T. It's as simple as that. Furthermore, I believe this thread has past the point of no return. Maybe it's time to close it.

 

[deerstalkert]

what i can't understand is how the exact some chemical formulation ground to different size is supposed to be wildly more dangerous?
when making a batch i end up with a spread of sizes that i run through screen to separate.
i then do a burn test with a set amount of each size.
i have found that the different sizes have different ignition points, but the fire ball size is the same size.
unscientific yes. but after 60 years observation i ain't scared of using 4f as a main charge!