Flintlocks and Black Powder

[Stone]

My last post on this topic,
If some new shooter takes your advice and ends up double loading a rifle of dubious quality which cannot take the extremely high pressure and the rifle lets go injuring several bystanders and the shooter, how are you going to handle that? What will you say?

I'm a rookie. Are you saying it's okay to double load 3F but not 4F?

 

[Britsmoothy]

My last post on this topic,
If some new shooter takes your advice and ends up double loading a rifle of dubious quality which cannot take the extremely high pressure and the rifle lets go injuring several bystanders and the shooter, how are you going to handle that? What will you say?

There you go again, the same mantra clap trap.
"Extremely high pressure" .
What don't you get about all the tests done by reputable muzzleloaders who documented their efforts to try and blow up muzzleloaders and failed other than from cavitation?
Wait a minute....how many recomend tight ball and patch combinations and no or little lubrication so said novice get a ball wedged half way down the bore and attempts to shoot it out, BOOM
ALL HYPOTHETICAL CLAP TRAP!
Wait wait, I'll tell you what I would say to said novice. You idiot!
"Extreme pressure"

 

[Britsmoothy]

I'm a rookie. Are you saying it's okay to double load 3F but not 4F?

 

[oncewas]

Okay I don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that the referenced web page is from Eastern Maine not Swiss and states: Description
Recommended for priming powder for flintlock rifles and pistols.

And a recommendation is certainly not a statement of fact or anything other than a recommendation from a reseller not a manufacture.

Okay that's all, sorry to interrupt, you all can go back to it.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Okay I don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that the referenced web page is from Eastern Maine not Swiss and states: Description
Recommended for priming powder for flintlock rifles and pistols.

And a recommendation is certainly not a statement of fact or anything other than a recommendation from a reseller not a manufacture.

Okay that's all, sorry to interrupt, you all can go back to it.

Thank you and yes.
With that recommendation there is no warning of impending doom if used for anything else.

 

[azmntman]

I accidently loaded a 12ga with double load (like 200 gr) and some #4. The gunsmith shot it, went down rolling in fetal position mumbling and moaning about "not doing recoil" and the gun was fine....other than blew off the bead. He was fine too, cept he still to this day thinks I did it on purpose. I wouldn't do that to MY gun on purpose. Lotta pressure apparently, he was a big dude looked like a roach rolling around LOL

 

[jimairwin]

Don't use 4F you'll blow yourself up
Don't blow down the barrel you'll shoot yourself
Don't buy your son a BB gun he will shoot his eye out

And knives can be sharp

When I was young I tried many things that "everyone" knew were foolish. Even fired my 40mm cannon using 4fg! worked fine. Burns faster & develops max pressure "spike" a bit sooner. That's about it.

 

[david w]

When I was young I tried many things that "everyone" knew were foolish. Even fired my 40mm cannon using 4fg! worked fine. Burns faster & develops max pressure "spike" a bit sooner. That's about it.

I would have been using canon grade powder, but that's silly old me.

 

[Stone]

Okay I don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that the referenced web page is from Eastern Maine not Swiss and states: Description
Recommended for priming powder for flintlock rifles and pistols.

And a recommendation is certainly not a statement of fact or anything other than a recommendation from a reseller not a manufacture.

Okay that's all, sorry to interrupt, you all can go back to it.

Maybe those recommendations are like the recommendations on the new gas cans, to make sure a drop of gas is not spilled.

"Don't use the old gas cans, you might spill a drop"

"Use the new gas cans and spill a half a gallon"

 

[Brokennock]

My last post on this topic,
If some new shooter takes your advice and ends up double loading a rifle of dubious quality which cannot take the extremely high pressure and the rifle lets go injuring several bystanders and the shooter, how are you going to handle that? What will you say?

Please, who said anything about "double loading?"
Show me where in my posts I said anything about double loading.
I have specifically said, a few times, that one starts with a reduced load.

Your argument is dishonest and disingenuous. You should be aspirated of yourself l, but probably are incapable of it.

 

[waksupi]

I'll not get too involved with this little love fest going on. I'll just put in something to ponder.
Testing was done in a modern semi auto pistol, and it was found 3 f wouldn't cycle most times, but 4 f would. So, not much pressure being generated.
On the other hand, Elmer Keith managed to blow the loading gate off a single action Colt with a heavy load of black powder.
Ya loads ya powder, and ya takes ya chances.

 

[Stone]

Please, who said anything about "double loading?"
Show me where in my posts I said anything about double loading.
I have specifically said, a few times, that one starts with a reduced load.

Your argument is dishonest and disingenuous. You should be aspirated of yourself l, but probably are incapable of it.

I think this argument falls into the category of those who are not responsible, skilled, and intelligent enough to do it properly, don't think anybody should be allowed to do it.

It's like gun control activists, they do not possess the skills to responsibly handle a gun so they think guns should be outlawed.

 

[Brokennock]

I think this argument falls into the category of those who are not responsible, skilled, and intelligent enough to do it properly, don't think anybody should be allowed to do it.

It's like gun control activists, they do not possess the skills to responsibly handle a gun so they think guns should be outlawed.

I wish it were that simple.
Some people are just so arrogant and self agrandising that they can't stand to be asked for proof of what they say. They expect everyone to take them on their, "because I say so," and also often fall back on, "because that's how I was taught and how things have always been."
Then they fall back on twisting other people's words or putting words in other people's mouths. Which, in my opinion when you say or imply that someone said something they did not say, is lying.

We often have this same issue with discussions of whether or not an item is period correct. Someone states that something questionable most certainty is p.c. and when asked for proof, gets defensive, then when asked further goes into the gyrations you see here from those who have no proof of their assertion. Often, as here, it started as a simple request for proof, not as a challenge to their ego or "intelligence," but a simple request for information. "Where did you get the data to support your position and can we please also be privy to that data?" People's egos have often gotten too big and at the same time too fragile to have what they think they know questioned.

 

[Jim Evans]

Okay I don't have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that the referenced web page is from Eastern Maine not Swiss and states: Description
Recommended for priming powder for flintlock rifles and pistols.

And a recommendation is certainly not a statement of fact or anything other than a recommendation from a reseller not a manufacture.

Okay that's all, sorry to interrupt, you all can go back to it.

This is from the Schuetzen / Swiss Powder site

 

[Brokennock]

I'll not get too involved with this little love fest going on. I'll just put in something to ponder.
Testing was done in a modern semi auto pistol, and it was found 3 f wouldn't cycle most times, but 4 f would. So, not much pressure being generated.
On the other hand, Elmer Keith managed to blow the loading gate off a single action Colt with a heavy load of black powder.
Ya loads ya powder, and ya takes ya chances.

I'm aware of Keith's incident, and a couple others he had.
Where can I find this semi-auto pistol test?

 

[Brokennock]

This is from the Schuetzen / Swiss Powder site

View attachment 112683

Yup. So what. How many people out there use 3f in guns larger than .45?
A lot. And more of them all the time.
"Suggested use" it is a suggestion.

No one asked for some suggested use data.

Let's see the evidence that a properly developed load using 4f blows up guns.
Let's see all those articles about, and pictures of, guns blown up using 4f.

"Common knowledge" also generalized that one cannot and should not use smokeless pistol powder in centerline rifle reloading. Yet there are pages of published data using Bullseye and Red Dot to load just about every cartridge under the sun.
Generally speaking the common knowledge is right about that. But, there are exceptions and there is a process by which those exceptions are found and used.
Why would 4f black powder be any different?

 

[Stone]

This is from the Schuetzen / Swiss Powder site

View attachment 112683

If you think about it, this is nothing more than the warning in a owner's manual for a gun saying guns can be very dangerous.

A gun can only be dangerous if used inappropriately.

 

[Brokennock]

I wish they would take the labels off of hairdryers and toasters that stop people from plugging them in and using them as bath toys.

 

[Stone]

I wish they would take the labels off of hairdryers and toasters that stop people from plugging them in and using them as bath toys.

I don't know, I tend to agree with Darwin

 

[Brokennock]

I don't know, I tend to agree with Darwin

I think if you look at the society around us, you will see that humans have made a great effort to, and done a good job of, proving him wrong.