victorian equipment v modern

[mattybock]

I bought a little patch puller and ball worm all the long way back in 2008(?), at the same time I bought my first bullet mold and it's got me to thinking about redesigning old stuff for the modern day and if it's really a good idea.
I have never used any civil war era equipment, but the experience I had with the patch puller and ball worm has sparked my interest in the old style. If it was used back then, surely it must have been of a good design, right?

I got a patch down the barrel, wiping it after a day of shooting and lo and behold, the patch slips despite the patch having been pierced and right around the base of the puller. So I put the puller down, trying to re-poke it and pull it out. Eventually I had to work powder behind the nipple and blow it out (about 5 grns). The long skinny patch puller, made of one single spiraled pin, just didn't have the OD to really encompass the patch.

My ball puller also gave me a fit. I was trying it with a purposefully dry ball, just to see what I could expect in the future should be need arise. I had to literally hammer my rod down to get a good bite into the lead. The ball (now no long really a ball as it was a blob) slipped repeatedly. Finally I just had to hammer the screw like worm through the balls diameter and put it out, spiraling the rod clockwise to maintain the grip.

Is pulling a ball always this hard? Does period equipment make a difference?

ps- got my FFL in the mail a few days ago. The Acme Gun Co. with up in earnest this coming September or October.

 

[dikman]

When it came to making a patch puller, I looked at the "old" designs but then made mine from a corkscrew off a bottle opening set. Cheap and easier than the twin-hook thingy. I've had to remove a few patches (!) and it's worked well every time, the longer length of the corkscrew gives far more for the patch to wrap around. As for a ball puller, I bought one from TOTW, at their price it wasn't worth messing around (I bought the one with a guide collar, it's worked fine and didn't need much effort to screw into the ball).

As far as I'm concerned both show improvements in design over the "old" ones.

 

[Artificer]

As a modern Military Armorer and Gunsmith, I have had an interest in 18th and 19th century gun tools and accoutrements and collected the same since the mid 70's.

Though there was some JUNK items made either by the incompetent or shysters even then, it is surprising how even some fairly crude tools and accoutrements were made with really good to superb design. Though there are contemporary makers making items as good or better than even some of the best original items, it seems a lot of stuff on the market today is made by people who really don't understand what they are copying or have to make it too cheaply for what the market will generally pay.

Some of the very best items to study are those included with High Quality/High Cost Dueling Pistols, Target Rifles and the exceedingly rare Cased Guns with their Accoutrements En Suite. As an example, I was fortunate to have Mentors who allowed me to closely examine the accoutrements in an almost Mint Cased Whitworth Target Rifle ensemble. Those accoutrements were so finely made and finished, it could take your breath away if interested in such things. Two books I highly recommend are “Gun Tools, Their History and Identification, Vol. 1 and Vol. 2,” by James Shaffer and R. Stephen Dorsey. Though there is not a huge selection of 18th century items, there are some and more items from the 19th and 20th centuries.

As examples of gun tools that are too often made today with poor design are Gun Worms and Ball Screws or Ball Pullers.

To work properly, the points on Gun Worms have to be SHARP and the points have to extend beyond the coils of the metal. (Of course, we have to do a better job of educating folks that they need to occasionally sharpen the points on their Gun Worms, as well.) I’ve seen way too many Gun Worms where the coils were at or ahead of the points on cheaper gun worms. That interferes with the Gun Worm being able to grab Tow or a Patch at the breech end of a muzzle loader. Gun Worms also work best when their diameter is close to bore size, but still under bore size. I have some original UnCivil War Period Worms that were made for .69 cal. bores, that USUALLY work good for .75 Caliber Brown Bess barrels, but there are times that ONLY a .75 caliber worm will get the job done on really getting a stuck patch or Tow out of a .75 cal. barrel. One last thing about Gun worms is that sometimes the tines holding the sharpened points were heated and bent so they could be used as Ball Pullers, then re-heat treated. Such original modified worms and even pulled/extracted Minie Balls with the marks from the points have been found in excavations of UnCivil War sites.

Modern Ball Screws are sometimes made from wood screws (the worst as they are often so hard to get the threads to bore into the ball) and often made with “Sheet Metal Screw Shape and Threads” where the threads and roots of the screw are uniform diameter past the point. Sheet metal style screw threads are better at cutting into soft lead, though they may just drill into a ball and not hold well enough to pull the ball out without stripping the threads cut into the soft lead. Yes, many of us have pulled stuck balls with some of the sheet metal ball screws over the years, but they can strip out the threads cut into the ball on really stuck balls.

18th and 19th century Ball Screws usually had tapered threads and roots like the lead (pronounced Leed) screws or centering screws on gimlets, augers and other wood boring tools. Behind that was a bulbous or almost onion shaped collar that kept the screw in the center of the bore and ball. Behind that was a collar that was threaded for the iron/steel rammer threads. They were normally forged or formed out of one piece of metal and filed and turned to fit. Perhaps the main difference in the 18th century Ball screws was the threaded collar tended to be square while the 19th century ball screw collars tended to be turned round like the three 19th century examples in this link. http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/9487/10489170_1.jpg?v=8CDD7E4182C26D0

Oh, there were original combination Ball Screws and Worms that date to at least the 1780’s, if not before. I had an original from this period with the square collar and it was nicely made. However, it turned out to be a “Rube Goldberg” design that did not work well for either a worm or a ball screw. So not ALL original designs worked out. Grin.

Well, I could blather on about other tools and accessories, but I don’t want to bore you. Do you have questions about particular tools/accoutrements, military or civilian, for smoothbores, rifles or pistols?

Gus

 

[Patocazador]

The single screw design of patch puller doesn't work well for me. The "2 wire thingy" does work well on patches. I've never even tried to 'pull' a ball; I just put powder in the nipple channel or touch hole and shoot them out .. much easier.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If it was used back then, surely it must have been of a good design, right?

That makes sense to me. Sorta. :hmm:
But, 'splain this to me...if wood wheel carts pulled by donkeys were a good design used "back then"....why ain't we still using them instead of shiny metal things propelled with gasoline engines? :shocked2: :idunno:
Just askin'. :wink:

 

[Artificer]

I first went to an NSSA Spring National Shoot in 1974 to work locks for better trigger pulls and general gunsmith work on UnCivil War period guns.

In those early years most of us used original gun tools, appendages and accoutrements because they were plentiful and cheap enough and to a lesser extent, few repro's were being made. When the repro's started coming out, they were often far lower in quality and finish than the originals and some of them failed the first time one tried to use them.

It is a pleasure to work with an Original Private's and especially a Sergeant's Musket tool for the P1853 British Enfield Rifle Muskets. I have owned both. When the repro's came out, they were very poorly made and often would not work as they should. Lately some people have been making much better copies of them, though.

Bottom line, one of the best things you can do is examine as many original gun tools and accoutrements as you can, because then you will see the quality and often what they really were meant to do.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Just found this site while looking for something else. Thought you would get a kick out of it.

http://www.finesportingcollectablesltd.co.uk/access.htm

Gus

 

[azmntman]

I like Donkeys (especially Brighty, even though he had a bit of Burro in him). I believe we may all be liking Donkeys alot pretty soon.

 

[MSW]

Thanks you for the informative post, Artificer ... amazing what you pick up just reading this site ...

:hatsoff:

 

[Alden]

Same, and never had to pull a dry-ball of my own. Had one gun at an event where we could not pull the screwed-in rod back out of the gun. Not sure if we had a rod puller but the gun left that way...