Traditions Patented Breech Help

[Twisted_1in66]

I started to worry about not being able to swab my patent breech too. Tried a tip I saw on the forum: take a Q-tip and screw it into the end of your ramrod, it's not as good as a brush but at least it'll get in there!

Once you get it clean you can use hydraulic pressure to keep it clean. My first longrifle was a Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle and it uses a patent breech. I still use that same method with my Early Lancaster Rifle from a private builder (was "tg" from the forum) although it has a standard breech and not a patent breech.

It's really simple actually. Remove your lock and put a toothpick or twig in the vent. Then pour a few inches of water or whatever cleaning solution you like to use (I use MAP) and stand the rifle up to let the liquid soak the fouling while you clean and oil the lock. Then, before mounting the lock back into place, start to run a wet patch down the barrel. As you get part way down you will start to feel some pressure against it because you're starting to try to compress the liquid cleaner and it has nowhere to go.

At this point it is very important that you point the vent away from anything you don't want to stain black that is within about 10-feet of where you are standing. Then keeping pressure on your ramrod, reach down and pull the toothpick out of the vent pushing the ramrod down forcefully and quickly. That will spray out the blackest dirtiest gunk you've ever seen and it will easily spray out at least 6-feet. Anything it hits will be stained black, so don't point it towards a tent!

Then continue to clean the barrel by running wet patches down until they come back clean. When the wet patches come back clean, use a dry patch or two to wipe out any remaining liquid and then finally, run a lightly oiled patch to put a thin film of oil on the inside of the barrel for rust protection.

I used that Traditions longrifle with the patent breech for about 3-years for all my reenactments I did in Vermont and then Virginia before I bought my Early Lancaster longrifle. Using that hydraulic pressure cleans a patent breach out really well and I never had a problem with mine. I never did get a smaller swab or brass wire brush for it and I never needed it. Nor did I need to drill that chamber out any wider.

Twisted_1in66
Dan

 

[Grenadier1758]

Don't you guys know that once you take a cva/Traditions drum and breech plug apart you will never get it back together again??

They know that by using indexing marks to create perfect alignment indicators, the breeches can be put back together. However, the alignment must be perfect. I have read articles from several years back about opening up the through hole from the chambered breech to better match the barrel. It can be done. One of the modifications was done using the long drill with the breech in place. One can't do the tapering of the chamber, but opening the chamber does help significantly as @kyron4 mentions. Of course, removing the breech plug on a CVA or Traditions rifle violates the warranty. But CVA no longer services the traditional rifles, so there's no warranty anyway. @rich pierce's and @Snooterpup's method is among the best for relieving the clogging of the chambered breech problem in these rifles. The only successful modifications that I know of have been done by machinists and tool makers that have the proper tools to get the parts back in alignment.

 

[rcscott30]

I got a email back from Traditions just now saying their is no breech in a Kentucky pistol! Only a clean out screw and to use a pipe cleaner!! They don't even know their own product....

 

[rcscott30]

Good Morning,

Ryan, thank you for your email. Unfortunately , there is no breech in a Kentucky Pistol . And the bolster does not thread out there is a clean out screw . If you are inferring to the nipple area, we would recommend a pipe cleaner . Also, you can definitely use a 38 caliber cleaning rod to clean the barrel if that works.

I want to take my plasma cutter to the barrel now!!

 

[Snooterpup]

I posted this a while back but here it is again for newer folks.
Be very very careful using a bronze brush in a muzzleloader, especially if it has a chambered/patent breech.
Carefully note the differences in the two brush examples. Do not even be tempted to use the swaged type as it can easily pull apart and create a boar’s nest of epic proportions and can result in needing to unbreech the firearm. The correct style brush is looped through the brass connector. RMC Ox Yolk and Track of the Wolf has the good ones.

 

[rcscott30]

I posted this a while back but here it is again for newer folks.
Be very very careful using a bronze brush in a muzzleloader, especially if it has a chambered/patent breech.
Carefully note the differences in the two brush examples. Do not even be tempted to use the swaged type as it can easily pull apart and create a boar’s nest of epic proportions and ca result in needing to unbreech the firearm. The correct style brush is looped through the brass connector. RMC Ox Yolk and Track of the Wolf has the good ones.View attachment 300802

 

[rcscott30]

T.O.W. is the only online supplier of muzzleloader cleaning supplies I trust.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I got a email back from Traditions just now saying their is no breech in a Kentucky pistol! Only a clean out screw and to use a pipe cleaner!! They don't even know their own product....

They may have meant that there is no "chambered" breech. I have an old CVA Kentucky pistol and it has the flat traditional breech. May be time to spring for one of those cheap bore scopes to see what the breech looks like.

 

[rcscott30]

They may have meant that there is no "chambered" breech. I have an old CVA Kentucky pistol and it has the flat traditional breech. May be time to spring for one of those cheap bore scopes to see what the breech looks like.

It's a 10 inch barrel, I got a small flashlight and took a peek down there. Yea, it's chambered. I'd say down to about .38 caliber with the bolster threaded past half way.

 

[Frontier's]

It's a .22 brush the clean traditions and cvas. Lyman used the larger 30cal plus.

You're wasting time trying to clean that. Hot soapy water does it.

If you're having ignition trouble, a $20 bore camera Will allow you to see the face of the drum/breech. Sometimes folks turn the drum so the hammer hits square and do not realize they closed up the drum hole, blocking the channel off.

 

[Frontier's]

It's a 10 inch barrel, I got a small flashlight and took a peek down there. Yea, it's chambered. I'd say down to about .38 caliber with the bolster threaded past half way.

They're telling you that so you don't fiddle with the breech plug itself.

 

[longcruise]

They know that by using indexing marks to create perfect alignment indicators, the breeches can be put back together. However, the alignment must be perfect.

I was being sarcastic. I've disassembled and reassembled several of them even though ml forum experts repeatedly claim that it either can't or shouldn't be done.

 

[Grenadier1758]

And, yes, @longcruise, I am one of those Forum experts that make the statement that such breech removal shouldn't be done. This is especially true when a Traditions breech is the subject, or the posting indicates a lack of machine tool skills or lack of access to suitable machine tools. If the warranty is to be voided by removing the breech on a Traditions gun, then removal should be avoided. I know of several machinists that have successfully worked on the interlocking breeches.

 

[Rebel bull]

They know that by using indexing marks to create perfect alignment indicators, the breeches can be put back together. However, the alignment must be perfect. I have read articles from several years back about opening up the through hole from the chambered breech to better match the barrel. It can be done. One of the modifications was done using the long drill with the breech in place. One can't do the tapering of the chamber, but opening the chamber does help significantly as @kyron4 mentions. Of course, removing the breech plug on a CVA or Traditions rifle violates the warranty. But CVA no longer services the traditional rifles, so there's no warranty anyway. @rich pierce's and @Snooterpup's method is among the best for relieving the clogging of the chambered breech problem in these rifles. The only successful modifications that I know of have been done by machinists and tool makers that have the proper tools to get the parts back in alignment.

I make a fare amount of cap money fixing Spanish muzzleloaders after amateurs have gotten in over their heads. yes you can use a witness mark to re assemble your barrel but if doing it that way it will no longer be tight and i would suggest the use of locktite when they are originally assembled they are bored after they are torqued into place. Also I have cleaned up reshaped the funnel of the breech face with a ball end mill and or a counter sink

 

[Colonial Boy]

I had the same sort of problem with a Pedersoli “Kentucky” pistol.

From an earlier post.

maybe it's too late, but can you make it a flinter?

I toyed with the idea but decided to stick with percussion.
Here’s the latest bit of work.
I found that the drum was overturning slightly but not enough to use a washer so I washed the threads in alcohol and reassembled using 24 hour epoxy, assembled the pistol and set the nipple right, left it for a bit over thirty hours and then drilled the chamber out from 0.217 in to around o.335 [that’s what the unmarked drill measures].
Removed the unwanted threads from the drum previously so the drum is now a neat cleanable fit in the larger chamber.
The heavy lines are the original chamber and protrusions [ no wonder the previous owner said it hadn’t been fired much].Please excuse lousy drawing.

Here’s the drill and wooden muzzle bush along with the barrel with the sights filed down [I’ll probably make them smaller yet when I zero it].
Also took the newness off the lockplate.
When drilling I set the depth using the chuck as the stop and centered the drill in reverse at very slow revs then keeping slight pressure on, I switched to forward and drilled the chamber, with a few stops to tip out the swarf.

 

[longcruise]

@Colonial Boy You fixed a big problem that is common to the Pedersolis. Maybe they do the newer ones differently but I've seen Pedersoli shooters struggling with ignition problems due to the plug being bored way too small.

The Spanish ones are much larger.

 

[longcruise]

And, yes, @longcruise, I am one of those Forum experts that make the statement that such breech removal shouldn't be done. This is especially true when a Traditions breech is the subject, or the posting indicates a lack of machine tool skills or lack of access to suitable machine tools. If the warranty is to be voided by removing the breech on a Traditions gun, then removal should be avoided. I know of several machinists that have successfully worked on the interlocking breeches.

I'm mostly in agreement with you. You are an expert and know when to advise restraint. Was referring to those who have no expertise or experience but parrot their version of what they have read.

 

[flconch53]

I did the same thing to a Pedersoli Hatfield copy. Had to shorten the touch hole liner as well. Helped a lot! Problem was still a poorly performing lock.
I have a healthy dislike for the chambered (patent) breech design.

I used to just bore the patent breach out to match the gun caliber and be done with it. I too did not like a patent breach especially in a flintlock

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

God gave you a gun cleaning tool built in:

Your wiener.

I pee down the bore of my guns and let it flow out the touch hole. Dry with a candle and slather the piece with rendered coon or possum tallow.

 

[TCMonts]

Feel like I may have mentioned it before but an appropriately sized mop works well and will never get stuck.