Patent Breech Investarms Hawken failures to fire

[Bruce in WV]

I've started shooting a new-to-me Investarms Hawken 50, and am experiencing significant failures to fire using CCI #11 caps and FFG Triple 777. I have been very thorough in cleaning the barrel and breech with hot, soapy water; the water runs freely out of the drum (nipple removed) when I lift it from the water, so I don't think there is a stoppage in the patent breech. The nipple is clear, too, after cleaning, so there is a firing flame in the breech when the hammer falls.

My guess is that the combination of the CCI cap and FFG Triple 777 doesn't "work" in this particular rifle, so am taking the gun back to the range with FFFG black powder, which should ignite more readily, and Remington caps, which have the reputation of being hotter.

I would appreciate any other suggestions or ideas.

TIA

 

[OldSmoky1967]

I've started shooting a new-to-me Investarms Hawken 50, and am experiencing significant failures to fire using CCI #11 caps and FFG Triple 777. I have been very thorough in cleaning the barrel and breech with hot, soapy water; the water runs freely out of the drum (nipple removed) when I lift it from the water, so I don't think there is a stoppage in the patent breech. The nipple is clear, too, after cleaning, so there is a firing flame in the breech when the hammer falls.

My guess is that the combination of the CCI cap and FFG Triple 777 doesn't "work" in this particular rifle, so am taking the gun back to the range with FFFG black powder, which should ignite more readily, and Remington caps, which have the reputation of being hotter.

I would appreciate any other suggestions or ideas.

TIA

Just put a little FFFG in the barrel followed by the regular 777 charge. Thats should ignite it. If not, try a musket nipple and cap. They never fail to ignite.

 

[hanshi]

About any rifle with a "patent type" breech can give headaches when substitute powders are used. Black powder is "touchy", ignites easily and should make a difference in your rifles performance. The "dog leg" fire channel in these rifles is just a poor solution to a nonexistent problem. Any percussion cap usually gives good account of itself if black is in the bore.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Bruce in WV, you may want to try one of the nipples designed to deliver more flame through those twists and turns in a chambered breech. These brands are Hot Shot, Red Hot, and Spit Fire. You should be okay when using Real Black Powder. A magnum cap has a bit more priming compound but caps can be hard to find.

 

[Andrewmtnman]

I have that rifle in a 45 and use pyrodex (3f equivalent) most all the time. I mostly use cci as well. I dont recall ever having a failure to fire, sometimes the cap doesn't go off if its not seated tight but always goes off on the second hit. I have never tried 777 but think its similar to pyrodex. Did you try a pipe cleaner to be sure that channel is open all the way?

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Failure to fire in a.paten breech is a plugged nipple dirty or wet breech! Every time.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I have an Investarms .50 cal. Hawken. I use a Tres Ampco #11 nipple which is only a .028 flash hole. I use Remington caps, CCI caps and RWS caps. I have never had a problem with hang fires or misfires. I use 2F Swiss black powder.
I have a buddy who shoots a TC New Englander. He is constantly getting hang fires and misfires. He uses Triple 7 powder.
I have been trying to convince him for years to shoot regular black powder but he won't listen. More than once he has not been able to fire shots at deer or his gun would not go boom at the end of a hunt when he wanted to unload his gun.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I would suggest shooting off about 3 to five caps before loading your gun. It will dry up any oils or moisture in the flash hole and flash channel. Prior to shooting off the caps I would run a dry patch or 2 down the barrel to remove any oil or moisture in the barrel.

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

Use 3f triple 7 if you want reliable ignition with a sulfur free powder. Ive seen others here say that the 2f triple 7 gives them the same issue, regardless of breech type.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have an Investarms .50 cal. Hawken. I use a Tres Ampco #11 nipple which is only a .028 flash hole. I use Remington caps, CCI caps and RWS caps. I have never had a problem with hang fires or misfires. I use 2F Swiss black powder.
I have a buddy who shoots a TC New Englander. He is constantly getting hang fires and misfires. He uses Triple 7 powder.
I have been trying to convince him for years to shoot regular black powder but he won't listen. More than once he has not been able to fire shots at deer or his gun would not go boom at the end of a hunt when he wanted to unload his gun.

Some people you just can’t help.

 

[Steve Wagner]

I use nothing but t-7, and while sometimes finicky in patent breeches, the Knight Red Hots have been outstanding and solved the problem for me. The Hot Shots, which are vented did not work at all for me, but some shooters love them. I think I got the Red Hots at RMC Oxyoke or Track of the Wolf. You will need metric threads for you rifle. I use standards in TC Hawkens. Don't forget to tip your rifle to an angle, lockside down, and give it a few raps from the opposite side to drive the powder into the drum. After waiting out your next misfire, remove the nipple and check to see if any powder got into the drum. If not, that is the problem and it may need to be opened up a bit or cleaned more thoroughly.
If you get it figured out, but want a bit of security that it will fire when hunting, remove nipple after loading and fill the drum w 3f if it is not already full and replace the nipple.
BTW, I use nothing but cci #11's and they are working great for me w t-7. But, unfortunately, every rifle, at some point becomes a law unto itself and will make particular demands.
Good luck. SW

 

[TDM]

Now supposedly the Winchester Magnum #11 caps are made to light off T7 better. But good luck finding them.

 

[Steve Wagner]

Now supposedly the Winchester Magnum #11 caps are made to light off T7 better. But good luck finding them.

Isn't it great, TDM. They keep coming up with new products that are just as unavailable as the old ones we would like get.
Seems as if we all need to have our own youtube channels to promo new firearms products. Those guys always have all the supplies they need so they can encourage us to buy what we can't get.
Maybe Winchester should just sell us the components with a kit so we can help em out. SW

 

[OldSmoky1967]

Failure to fire in a.paten breech is a plugged nipple dirty or wet breech! Every time.

Every time! And if I used bore butter it was worse! Old # 13, or spit patching works best for me to eliminate fouling that channel.

 

[Pork Chop]

I am a volunteer hunter safety instructor for the state of Florida. I demonstrate and teach the muzzleloader in particular. The state provides the firearms and all of the accoutrements. The powder is 777, the caps are either CCI or Remington depending on what the send. We are shooting a Thompson Center New Englander sidelock. I rarely have misfires unless I miss a step, and I see no need for changing the caps to something hotter. Before starting the day shooting, I wipe the bore and remove the nipple to ensure that it is clean and clear. I pop 2 or 3 caps while holding the muzzle at the grass - this clears the flash channel and I can see that the channel is clear by observing the grass move. When loading (we use 40 grains) I teach the students to always slap the side of the stock opposite the lock. This drives some of the powder into the flash channel. By doing this, it ensures consistent ignition. I explain that there are a lot of people who talk about the delay in firing once the trigger is pulled on a sidelock - slapping the stock virtually eliminates that issue. Try this method and let me know what you think.

 

[Leatherbark]

Load your rifle with the T7 and take out the nipple and see if there is any powder under the nipple ready to be ignited. If not, work on smacking the side of the rifle with your hand after loading the T7. Those granules don't flow up through that communication hole very well sometimes.

Bob

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Oh shot all the powders out of Paten breech. and the only time I ever had problems.
Was when I had crud in the breach.

 

[Bruce in WV]

All of these comments are helpful.

I followed OldNo7's guide on deburring and cleaning the flash channel from Jan of this year. On top of that, I lightly deburred the front edges and interior of the powder drum with 0000 steel wool and cutting oil on a shaped bronze cleaning brush on the end of a long cleaning rod with a bore guide chucked into a power drill at low speed.

I then followed the instructions on tipping and tapping the barrel to help gravity when I put the powder charge in the barrel, and removing the nipple to see if there is powder in the channel. When I ran the experiment with the 3F/FFFG (black powder), I saw it, but not when I tried the 2F/FFG (T7). I don't have any 3F T7 on hand to verify the result with that powder.
I expect that making sure there were no obstructions in the powder drum and flash channel, and using the smaller kernels of 3F vs 2F will solve the problem. I'll know for sure when I get to the range after the rains clear.

 

[Leatherbark]

Another tip. When you clean that barrel. Put it in some water with the nipple off and pump flush that breech fast and furious with very warm tap or sun heated water.

Bob

 

[Greenjoytj]

I teach the students to always slap the side of the stock opposite the lock. This drives some of the powder into the flash channel.

I believe that slapping the stock opposite the lock would move powder out of the flash channel not into it.