Safe black powder storage?

[fleener]

This really is not that hard. Call your ATF office and ask the question it you feel that you need clarification.

Fleener

 

[nhmoose]

This really is not that hard. Call your ATF office and ask the question it you feel that you need clarification.

Fleener

AND get the wrong answer 99% of the time.

Only a letter from the BATFE Legal dept. means anything and only for the letter writer, and that will change momentarily.

 

[nhmoose]

This is the internet and Quislings are heavily amongst us.

 

[necchi]

:haha: , :thumbsup:
That's why the OP's question about containers is a no-foul question.
Everything is on the Up-and-Up around here.

 

[hulk]

Agreed. I thought everything was written pretty clear, well, as clear as you can get with legal mumbo jumbo. It's all good though, my question about containers was answered and I thank you all for your assistance. I learn something new here everyday.

 

[Tinker2]

op:







:dead:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

When I got my first flintlock in 2004, I had a lot of trouble finding black powder. So I tried to use some Pyrodex that I had on hand for a non-tradional cap-lock. Pyrodex absolutely did NOT work. The powder in the pan never ignited. Then I remembered coming across a 16-oz. half-full Mason Jar of 3f powder that was all that was left of the BP I had purchased and used in my cap-lock Kentucky Pistol back in 1969. I tried some of that in my flintlock and it worked like a charm.

That black powder that worked perfectly had been stored in that Mason jar for 35-years. It may not be the best place to store it, but it worked for me.

Not too long after that I found out there was a place about 6 miles away that sold black powder. It mainly dealt with Black Powder because the local slate quarries used it for blasting. It resulted in larger chunks of slate than the more modern explosives did.

You could buy it by the can or you could buy it in 25-lb. plastic bags. I bought it by the can and the reenactment group I belonged to bought it by the bag. For reenactments, we would fill our empty cans from the bag that one of the guys kept out in his "powder Magazine about 50-ft. away from his house. From time to time he would have as much as 50-lbs. in there, which was the legal limit.

I have about 3-lbs. in my garage right now and I keep it in some old BP cans inside of those army surplus waterproof metal ammo-cans.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan

 

[Scota4570]

I'd call an outfit like Powder Inc or Maine Powder house to get an answer.

 

[csitas]

An awful thing ---lockjaw.

 

[ddoyle]

how to store it safely

I assume you want to know how to store it safetly in your home so that it does not pose a signifigant hazard to you, your family, neighbours, first responder..... Your in luck wise minds have figured it all out. Even luckier thier figurin came up with something niether onerous or expensive or infringing:

In Britian (IIRC) and in Canada (for certain) regs regarding safe storage are built around Underwriter's and Ministry testing. The results are pretty definitive and interesting (look em up if you care). For we non-vendors or large holders it comes down to this:

Build a 3/4- 1 inch plywood box. Use bronze/brass screws or nails and bronze/brass hinges/hasps. If you put dividers of 3/4 plywood inbetween each 1 pound container of powder it is remarkable how long the whole works will survive in a fire. With out the dividers it is almost as remarkable.

Lable the box clearly with the appropriate sympol/lable so that a firefighter can ID it easily and have handles so that it can be carried easily.

Aside from that follow what all the powder cans- manufacture websites and muzzleloading associations I have ever seen say about storage- out of reach of kinder, etc, etc.


As an aside why not just buy some better quality German powder for a couple- few bucks more a pound in the quantity that you need/want???? All nicely Packaged in 1 pound bottles. 100 bucks for 5 pounds seems smarter then $325 for more then you think you need. Less powder to store- More cash to buy powder in the future. Did I mention better powder
:wink:

 

[Many Klatch]

I was in the paint department of Lowes the other day and saw that they sell brand new metal paint cans.

Last year a buddy and I went together and bought a 25 pound bag of 3F. We both had lots of empty Goex cans so that was not a problem. We wanted to make sure that there were no sparks when we poured it out. I had a Brass wash pan that I placed on the grass in the middle of a field away from sparks. We placed the empty can in the wash pan before filling. I had an aluminum funnel that fit in the can opening. We carefully poured the powder in until it topped out and then we shook the can to put in a bit more. It took us about 30 minutes to complete the job.

This year I bought 10 pounds of Goex 2F in their new plastic cans. Went home and poured the powder into old empty metal Goex cans.

Hang onto your empty metal cans.

 

[Archer 756]

:v Getting $3.00 per can at gun shows

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I think that there might actually be laws/regulations regarding the use of non-factory containers to store black powder in.

Well if that's true then everybody with a powder horn and everybody with powder flask, is in violation. :shocked2:

It's not prescription meds from schedule II so I think you're ok with other than factory labeled containers. :wink:

Hulk wrote:
Read this from the ATF website.

It's all well and good to be in compliance with the BATF, but have you checked your state laws? How about your county or your city/town?

Have you checked your Federal and State transportation laws on hazmat IF you buy in another state and then drive it home?
:hmm:

So say you and a buddy are making a bulk purchase. Everybody who wanted to buy chipped in before you departed, so when you get back you're not "selling" anything, but merely allowing the owner of the powder to take possession of his/her pound or two. Each of you is buying powder for their local club, and so you both buy a case of 25 cans at the dealer. When you're driving home are you in violation of anything? What if each of you bought two cases, and are riding back in the same car?
:hmm:

Say it's just you, and you only bought a single case for your group. Are they waiting in line when you get back, or are they more likely to pick it up on different days over the next week? So could you possibly have more pounds of other people's powder stored over the next few days than is permitted? Again, not on the Fed level but on the local?

Are the laws different for the condo owner, vs. townhomer, vs. single family home owner?
:hmm:

My area only allows limited ammounts of powder to be stored, and it's different if you live in an apartment or condo than in a single family home. So I only keep a small ammount of the stuff inside the home, and the rest is stored outside.

You could store it in a shed, if it doesn't get too hot, or in a cool corner of a garage. They even sell these " Survival Vaults" if you want to get fancy. :wink:

LD

 

[necchi]

but have you checked your state laws? How about your county or your city/town?
--------------------------------------------
Are the laws different for the condo owner, vs. townhomer, vs. single family home owner?

Exactly :haha:
I'm in the city limits, I can only have 10 pounds.
(they don't care about my nitro powders for CF loading)
My friend is about a 1/2 mile down the same road from me but outside the city limits,, the county says he can only have 25 pounds.
My brother 20 miles from here in another county can have the state limit of 50 pounds.
A high-school class mate is now the City Fire Chief, I asked him one time how I should store my powder, he said they don't care :shocked2:
When I said that I store the 1# containers in metal GI ammo cans he said "Well, ya can't beat old reliable can ya?",, he did go on to say it's a good idea to keep the ammo cans on the floor in a closet.
FD's worries more about hair spray and aerosol paint cans then powder, exploding cans throw shrapnel.

I do like ddyole's storage in a required closed wood box with wood dividers,
,, ya see, fire needs oxygen to burn, if you have a tight/closed container there's not enough oxygen for flame,, the container will only get toasted or roasted from external heat.
If BP is exposed to high heat without an ignition source(aka flame/spark) the sulfur content changes and the powder looses it's boom factor and will just cook off more like a propellant then an explosive.

 

[fleener]

Have you checked your Federal and State transportation laws on hazmat IF you buy in another state and then drive it home?
:hmm:

Answer: If you are buying powder for personal use and not as a commercial enterprise, you do not need to worry about being in violation of Federal transportation laws as they do not apply to you. All the States have adopted the Federal code for transportation so you will most likely be fine for State code as well.

So say you and a buddy are making a bulk purchase. Everybody who wanted to buy chipped in before you departed, so when you get back you're not "selling" anything, but merely allowing the owner of the powder to take possession of his/her pound or two. Each of you is buying powder for their local club, and so you both buy a case of 25 cans at the dealer. When you're driving home are you in violation of anything? What if each of you bought two cases, and are riding back in the same car?
:hmm:

Answers: Same answer as above

Fleener

 

[nhmoose]

Note UPS and FedEx carry it over state lines every day and have no placards on the trucks, Oh MY!![sarcasm/off]

 

[AZbpBurner]

As far as bulk buying, as Coot said, if the money for the powder is collected by an individual before the order is made, he/she can order the powder and distribute it to the people who paid for their order.

He/she has become a "agent" for each of the people involved in the purchase.

As their "agent", he is not selling the powder. He is merely ordering it and distributing it to the others.

As an "agent", he cannot sell any of the powder that was ordered or delivered to anyone who was not a party to the original order.

I'll be going with Zonie's assessment :thumbsup:

 

[fleener]

black powder is a 1.1D explosive, which the USDOT requires placards for any quantity shipped/transported.

There is an exception that for sporting arms purposes black powder packaged in 1 lb packages, not to exceed 25 lbs in a outer package, can be reclassified from a 1.1D explosive to a flammable solid. As a flammable solid you do not have to placard the vehicle until you have over 1,000 lbs. Hence no placards on UPS or FedEx trucks.

So, as you can see the USDOT recognizes that black powder for us to shoot in our ML is important to us and that we should have some reglatory relief.

The bigger thing that the reclassifying does for us is that it changes the trucking companies public liability from 5M to 1M, this is huge cost issue for the trucking companies. It also means that the companies do not need to have a Hazardous Materials Safety Permit that also reduces their operating cost.

Fleener

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Answer: If you are buying powder for personal use and not as a commercial enterprise, you do not need to worry about being in violation of Federal transportation laws as they do not apply to you. All the States have adopted the Federal code for transportation so you will most likely be fine for State code as well.

Ah that's a good answer when you get to court.

"Trooper, this is for personal use. Really. ALL of it. I'm not selling it." Funny how many guys try for the civil citation instead of the criminal arrest, when in possession of a LARGE amount of another substance, and they always say, "It's all for me. I don't sell to nobody!" AND that never works. I wonder if it would work with 25 cans of powder? :wink:

I'm not telling folks not to drive to another state to buy powder, I'm just suggesting they should know what might happen and accordingly take precautions.

Another example, black powder that we shoot isn't used in fireworks, not in the same manner at least, BUT the local officers and troopers may not know that, or heck they might have used 4F when they were kids to make firecrackers. If it's around the 4th of July and you "sojourn" into or through Maryland with your case of powder, they just might cite you for having fireworks materials on board your car, if you get stopped. :wink:

It's one thing on paper, and another in application. It's sad, and shouldn't be that way, but it sometimes is.

LD

 

[fleener]

Well, roadside officers are just like the rest of the population. Some are better than others and some know more about the laws than others.

That is why it is important for people to understand what they can and can not legally do when transporting or buying powder for their personal use. Sometimes you have to educate people, and that also at times includes an officer that might have you stopped roadside.

fleener