jrmflintlock
45 Cal.
I think I may have some empty powder cans I could send you. I'll look when I get a chance.
PM me if you are interested.
PM me if you are interested.
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Safe black powder storage?
- Thread starter hulk
- Start date
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If you sell any black powder, Worry.hulk said:
That exemption for up to 50 pounds of powder is talking about how much you can have in your possession. It is NOT talking about selling black powder.
No one in the USA can sell black powder in ANY amount unless they are licensed by the Fed's.
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hanshi said:
They're everywhere.... :shocked2:
What did the guy on the edge of the cliff say right before falling?......."I'm not afraid of falling."
Famous last words.... :wink:
So you have never sold or bought black powder locally or face to face with an individual before? Like I said, there is nearly identical verbiage for selling any firearm also. It has been determined by the ATF that as long as you are not making it a "business" you can sell firearms without being an FFL, why would it be different for black powder?
Read this from the ATF website. Making a personal sale is not "dealing".
Is black powder subject to regulation under Federal explosives laws?
Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4). However, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a Federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements. [18 U.S.C. 841(c), 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of "explosives" and "explosive materials", 555.141(b)]
Read this from the ATF website. Making a personal sale is not "dealing".
Is black powder subject to regulation under Federal explosives laws?
Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4). However, persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a Federal explosives license, and comply with recordkeeping, storage and conduct of business requirements. [18 U.S.C. 841(c), 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of "explosives" and "explosive materials", 555.141(b)]
No guy's it's pretty much a given that you can't sell BP without being licensed to do so.
So hulk we're glad your just asking about storage and not asking about the hypothetical individual your buying from.
Because we all know he's probably licensed and it's none of our business to check.
And it's none of our business how or where your buying from period,,
You asked about storage.
So hulk we're glad your just asking about storage and not asking about the hypothetical individual your buying from.
Because we all know he's probably licensed and it's none of our business to check.
And it's none of our business how or where your buying from period,,
You asked about storage.
ATF is govt my friend. What they write and how they interpret it is many times completely dependent on the officers wifes attitude the weekend before. Dont ask dont tell was a good one, many applications for that "loop hole".
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The letter clearly states "dealing in ANY quantity". You do not need to be operating as a business to be considered "dealing". Ask an inmate who wasn't dealing, just trading some weed to a "friend" who was an undercover agent.
hulk said:
Just skimmed the letter as it doesnt apply to me, I do not split loads etc.
I would not doubt that 90% of these posts are flagged by big brother somewhere. With the terrorist threats I believe any post anywhere on line that say "black powder" are flagged.
Take care,
:surrender:
I disagree. Also, your example of someone "dealing" weed and going to jail is not even relevant because marijuana is not a legal substance to possess, whereas black powder is.
This says clearly that a single act or occasional participation is not "engaged in the business"...
Read below.
27 CFR 181.41: General
(Also 181.11)
Certain companies that manufacture explosive materials for use in their own operations
are required to obtain licenses as manufacturers of explosive materials.
ATF Rul. 75-31
[Status of ruling: Active]
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has been asked whether certain companies, such
as public utility companies that manufacture explosives for use in the area of field maintenance
and construction activities, are “engaged in the business” as manufacturers of explosive materials
and as such must obtain the required license for such manufacturers.
Under the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 842(a)(1), implemented by the regulations promulgated
thereunder (27 CFR 181.41), it is unlawful to engage in the business of manufacturing explosives
without a license. 18 U.S.C. 841(h) defines “manufacturer” as “any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own
use.”
Although the term “engaged in the business” is not susceptible to a rigid definition, it is
generally interpreted to imply an element of continuity or habitual practice as against a single act
or occasional participation.
Accordingly, it is held that companies, such as public utility companies engaged in line
and facility construction, which manufacture explosives on a regular or continual basis are
considered to be engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials and must be
appropriately licensed as required by 81 U.S.C. 842.
This says clearly that a single act or occasional participation is not "engaged in the business"...
Read below.
27 CFR 181.41: General
(Also 181.11)
Certain companies that manufacture explosive materials for use in their own operations
are required to obtain licenses as manufacturers of explosive materials.
ATF Rul. 75-31
[Status of ruling: Active]
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has been asked whether certain companies, such
as public utility companies that manufacture explosives for use in the area of field maintenance
and construction activities, are “engaged in the business” as manufacturers of explosive materials
and as such must obtain the required license for such manufacturers.
Under the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 842(a)(1), implemented by the regulations promulgated
thereunder (27 CFR 181.41), it is unlawful to engage in the business of manufacturing explosives
without a license. 18 U.S.C. 841(h) defines “manufacturer” as “any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own
use.”
Although the term “engaged in the business” is not susceptible to a rigid definition, it is
generally interpreted to imply an element of continuity or habitual practice as against a single act
or occasional participation.
Accordingly, it is held that companies, such as public utility companies engaged in line
and facility construction, which manufacture explosives on a regular or continual basis are
considered to be engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials and must be
appropriately licensed as required by 81 U.S.C. 842.
This does bring up another question. I have read many people say to order a bulk order and split it up among friends or family. Would this be considered "dealing" or "engaging in the business" of either dealing, manufacturing or importing?
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You have been given good advice by a number of members. You are free to ignore it at your own risk. Remember it is not how you read the regs but how a court sees them that counts. Re your question about a consolidated bulk order shared by several individuals, the question has come up before & the best answer is that IF each individual pays for their share up front & the order then goes in, no problem. It is when someone says that they will pay later after it arrives, or wants to reimburse you for a part of your share when they decide that they want more, that it becomes selling/dealing.
Don't get me wrong, I am grateful for all input shared. But I would also like to get a definitive answer. All I have heard so far is, "You can't do it" or "Everyone knows you can't do that" or something along those lines. From everything I am reading, there is no law or regulation that says you cannot sell or buy BP from an individual as long as you do not possess more than 50 lbs, it is commercially made, you are above age 18 and are not a felon. Can you please show me where it says otherwise? Maybe you are right and it is all up for interpretation. Again, I do not want to be disrespectful. I am a newer member but love this forum and community and look forward to many more good discussions and conversations with you all. If the best answers have been given, we will drop it altogether.
With that being said, here is a little more I dug up that I found useful for myself.
Please read to the last paragraph. All from the ATF.
(g) “Importer” means any person engaged in the business of importing or bringing explosive materials into the United States for purposes of sale or distribution.
(h) “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use.
(i) “Dealer” means any person engaged in the business of distributing explosive materials at wholesale or retail.
Licenses and permits issued on and after May 24, 2003””
(1) In general.
(i) Each person intending to engage in business as
an importer or manufacturer of, or a dealer in, explosive materials,
including black powder, must, before commencing business,
obtain the license required by this subpart for the business to be
operated.
(ii) Each person who intends to acquire for use
explosive materials within the State in which he resides on no
more than 6 separate occasions during the 12-month period in
which the permit is valid must obtain a limited permit under this
subpart. (See § 555.105(b) for definition of “6 separate occasions.”)
(iii) Each person who intends to acquire for use
explosive materials from a licensee or permittee in a State other
than the State in which he resides, or from a foreign country, or
who intends to transport explosive materials in interstate or
foreign commerce, or who intends to acquire for use explosive
materials within the State in which he resides on more than 6
separate occasions during a 12-month period, must obtain a user
permit under this subpart.
(iv) It is not necessary to obtain a permit if the user
intends only to lawfully purchase commercially manufactured
black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, intended to
be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in
antique firearms or in antique devices.
With that being said, here is a little more I dug up that I found useful for myself.
Please read to the last paragraph. All from the ATF.
(g) “Importer” means any person engaged in the business of importing or bringing explosive materials into the United States for purposes of sale or distribution.
(h) “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use.
(i) “Dealer” means any person engaged in the business of distributing explosive materials at wholesale or retail.
Licenses and permits issued on and after May 24, 2003””
(1) In general.
(i) Each person intending to engage in business as
an importer or manufacturer of, or a dealer in, explosive materials,
including black powder, must, before commencing business,
obtain the license required by this subpart for the business to be
operated.
(ii) Each person who intends to acquire for use
explosive materials within the State in which he resides on no
more than 6 separate occasions during the 12-month period in
which the permit is valid must obtain a limited permit under this
subpart. (See § 555.105(b) for definition of “6 separate occasions.”)
(iii) Each person who intends to acquire for use
explosive materials from a licensee or permittee in a State other
than the State in which he resides, or from a foreign country, or
who intends to transport explosive materials in interstate or
foreign commerce, or who intends to acquire for use explosive
materials within the State in which he resides on more than 6
separate occasions during a 12-month period, must obtain a user
permit under this subpart.
(iv) It is not necessary to obtain a permit if the user
intends only to lawfully purchase commercially manufactured
black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, intended to
be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in
antique firearms or in antique devices.
Right, you have highlighted the key points.
I can't see why your confused.
You can buy it, you possess it, you can use it, you can give it away.
But as soon as a bulk purchase is made and that same person sell's it "it's a business transaction". Individuals sharing the cost of a bulk purchase being shipped to one location isn't selling, the money has been pooled beforehand.
How and when that money is pooled for that purchase by a group of individuals in the privacy of a closed garage is, well, private.
Discretion is the key here.
The laws and rules are there to allow prosecution of malicious intent and the interpretation of those laws are up to the prosecutor.
If your hypothetical friend had an ad in the want ads of the newspaper to "sell" powder, he'd be in trouble.
So you asking about a storage container to go to your friends house to pick up your share of the powder hasn't broken any laws.
I'd close the garage door so the wind doesn't blow the powder around when you transfer.
I can't see why your confused.
You can buy it, you possess it, you can use it, you can give it away.
But as soon as a bulk purchase is made and that same person sell's it "it's a business transaction". Individuals sharing the cost of a bulk purchase being shipped to one location isn't selling, the money has been pooled beforehand.
How and when that money is pooled for that purchase by a group of individuals in the privacy of a closed garage is, well, private.
Discretion is the key here.
The laws and rules are there to allow prosecution of malicious intent and the interpretation of those laws are up to the prosecutor.
If your hypothetical friend had an ad in the want ads of the newspaper to "sell" powder, he'd be in trouble.
So you asking about a storage container to go to your friends house to pick up your share of the powder hasn't broken any laws.
I'd close the garage door so the wind doesn't blow the powder around when you transfer.
From a reading of the law posted it would seem a one off purchase of powder between friends would not be considered dealing in powder and would be allowable.
As far as bulk buying, as Coot said, if the money for the powder is collected by an individual before the order is made, he/she can order the powder and distribute it to the people who paid for their order.
He/she has become a "agent" for each of the people involved in the purchase.
As their "agent", he is not selling the powder. He is merely ordering it and distributing it to the others.
As an "agent", he cannot sell any of the powder that was ordered or delivered to anyone who was not a party to the original order.
He/she has become a "agent" for each of the people involved in the purchase.
As their "agent", he is not selling the powder. He is merely ordering it and distributing it to the others.
As an "agent", he cannot sell any of the powder that was ordered or delivered to anyone who was not a party to the original order.
