Peep Sight on Southern Mountaion Rifle

[Viking78]

I've been looking at this sight for some time.

It is also discussed in this thread from the Builder's Bench.

My question is: would this sight be period correct for my Southern Mountain flintlock longrifle? I can't remember that I have seen originals with this kind of sight.

 

[tg]

I doubt that it could be considered a period correct peep sight for a early 19th century gun, unless you could find such a sight on an original and document it as being the original sight, I believe this sight was designed to give the kinda-sorta-pc-peep sight illusion for those who did not want to use a standard modern peep.

 

[Java Man]

Would it even work as a peep if mounted anywhere but back by the breech?

 

[Wehrmacht]

Friend Oyvind,

Over the years I have handled and examined an untold number of original Southern rifles as well as a like number of Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifles.I have never seen a peep or receiver sight on any rifle of this era.You do find them in the caplock period on rifles used in match competition and long range shooting,ie buffalo hunting,but here you are talking the 1840's+. Southern rifles were still being made in the Southern Mountains even up into the first quarter of the 20th.century,but still,no receiver sights to my knowledge.( Notice that I say "to my knowledge",because as surely as I say absolutely no receiver sights,someone will come foward with one!)

The concept was present,however.I have examined a number of 17th and 18th century Spanish weapons coming primarily off shipwrecks here in Florida,and a rear sight in the form of a small tube several inches long is very common.These are very effective in creating the same sight picture that you get with a modern receiver sight.

A sidenote that may interest you since your background is early military history is this: Our WWI hero,Sgt.Alvin York,is always pictured with a 1917 Eddystone rifle.Even his statue in Jamestown,the county seat of his home in Pall Mall,Tennessee shows him with the Eddystone. He did not,however,use this rifle.When he landed in France his Company was given the choice of keeping their issued Edystones or swapping them for a regular issue Springfield 1903.He wanted the Springfield simply because,in addition to a receiver sight(which he strongly disliked)it had a regular notched rear sight with a post front sight like he had grown up using in the Tennessee Mountains.

The peep sight that you have shown HAS caught my attention,however! Now that I'm older than dirt and almost have to have my rear sight a couple of inches from my front sight,your illustrated sight looks like the answer! I think I'll get one made and slip it on one of my squirrel rifles and see if it puts me back in the ballgame .

 

[lacerote]

While I dont know about the Southern rifles , I can tell you for sure that peep sights were seen both on the earlier wheel lock and some of the German Jaeger flintlock rifles of which I have one orriginal type fitted with a small rear peep sight. Since the Jaeger is often quoted as the fore runner of the long rifle it is hard to imagine that not one maker ever tried it . Eagles

 

[reddogge]

He wanted the Springfield simply because,in addition to a receiver sight(which he strongly disliked)it had a regular notched rear sight with a post front sight like he had grown up using in the Tennessee Mountains.

There's been some recent articles refuting the fact that York used an Eddystone M1917 during his feat rather a Springfield 1903. I believe his son was the biggest proponent of the 1903 argument and said his father told him that.

The 1903 rear sight has both a peep when in the elevated postition and a notch above it and you can set the sights to use either one. Most GI's preferred the open notch on moving targets and poor light conditions over the peep. The peep was great for target shooting however. The Model of 1917 has only a peep mounted on the rear of the receiver, no notch available. I can see York favoring the 1903 over the M1917 based on the two sighting systems since he was a woodsman at heart.

 

[Wehrmacht]

redgogge,

Sgt.York has two surviving sons,one daughter and several nephews who grew up with his kids plus other family in Pall Mall. His son,Andy,and a nephew,Cletis,and I get togather every year at the York Memorial Shoot,a chunkgun match,and have a great time talking and remembering how things were in the good old days.Cletis and I keep and hunt Southern Mountain Cur Dogs, and did until recently have litter mates that we hunted with.

A couple of years back Andy and I got togather and he showed me his dad's personal diary which Sgt.York kept every day during his wartime[url] years.In[/url] the diary Sgt.York wrote that his unit was offered the '03 upon arriving in France,and that he and about half of the unit opted for the '03.He plainly said that his decision to swap out was because of the '03's notch and post sight that he was experienced with,and his dislike for the receiver sight on the 1917. The NRA's American Rifleman recently had an article about this that,I think,is the result of someone talking with Andy at the rifle match.

I asked Andy not long ago if his dad was able to keep his issued '03,and he said no, that the rifle had been stolen out of the ship's armory (the S.S. Ohioan) on the return trip from France to New York. He said his dad's favorite rifle that he shot in matches during the 1920's-30's was a presentation grade Winchester Model 1873.

 

[reddogge]

der Forster,
That's is extreemly interesting information and you are luckey to hob nob with York's kin in shooting games and such. Getting some information from them would be invaluable.

I read one auto-biography on him and they kind of mentioned they took his favorite '03 away and issued him the Eddystone M1917 upon landing in France. Your information and Bruce Canfield's information do refute that.

Did his son ever mention the Colt 1911 he used and what happened to it?

I own two 1903's and one Winchester Model of 1917 and prefer to shoot the 1903's myself. I shoot the peep though as I'm only punching paper. They are very accurate rifles. My Colt is a 70's era Govt. Model and I have a Remington Rand 1911A1 which I like a lot. I can't shoot any of them like York I suppose.

But back on topic, I'm an older guy and can still shoot iron sights. I use a homemade diopter on my shooting glasses made out of a small piece of electrical tape with a 1/16" hole punched in it. You can also purchase a Merit device to do the same thing but mine is FREEEEE. I would try that route before modifying a rifle with peep sights.

 

[Viking78]

Would it even work as a peep if mounted anywhere but back by the breech?

I guess it will, but I would think the size of the peep hole is a bit larger than breech mounted peep sights since the distance to the sight is farther away. I've ordered one of them anyway, to see how they work.

Most southern mountain rifles I have seen pictures of have been equipped with open sights and shades over both the front and rear sight.

 

[Hoyt]

Would it even work as a peep if mounted anywhere but back by the breech?

I'm going to try the peep sight shown above mounted in the same place as my normal rear sight. I stuck it on there with magnet and can see through it very easy. Soon as the weather clears around here I will go to range and give it a try.

 

[shunka]

Howdy Folks -
regarding "new" peeps - a gent I met on the 'net used to make a simple peep based on like "adjustable" CVA mountain rifle rear sights, if you follow. They are a bit slow until you get used to them but help us bifocul crowd. Regarding the effecivenss of a peep mounted that far forward on the barrel, the Japanese Arisaka Type 99 uses just that type of site.

I am working on whipping up a few with "very long" bases, (to get the peep closer to my eye) and I intend to make them look like an undersized "full buckhorn" .
best
shunka

 

[ktw]

I am working on whipping up a few with "very long" bases, (to get the peep closer to my eye)

I have a lyman 57 on a GPR that works great but looks a bit ungainly.

I'd like to try one of the following someday on a flintlock squirrel rifle (similar to the "very long" base you describe)
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories...p;partNum=RS-MA

-na

 

[Herb]

One proper name for this kind of sight is "closed buckhorn" according to Dr. Gary White, owner of the old Green River Rifle Works. He told me he shoots this kind of sight in matches and has not been challenged by someone calling it a peep sight. They are made to replace the open sight, located 8 to 12 inches forward of the breech. You look through them, and they work very good. I have made several of them and I like them. Six or eight years ago I saw an original Hawken in the NPS museum near the Arch in St Louis, and it had the closed buckhorn sight. Someday I'll find the photo I took of it and post it. For now, here is one in the State Historical Society Museum in Des Moines, Iowa. I don't remember the particulars on this rifle.

 

[Joel Lehman]

I have the long tang peep sight on my 54 Isaac Haines flintlock. It is my deer rifle. I shot it yesterday at the range. At 100 meters it was shooting 3 inch groups off the bench with 80 grains 3F, 530 ball, Walmart pillow ticking.

The peep sight is wonderful. It sits so low it is hardly noticeable. I have never had that good of accurance with open sights.

 

[big bore 75]

Track of the wolf sells another peep site too that I have insatlled on my virginia rifle, the site "m talking about is the one they say is not allowed in some club shoots, but it sure helps me put them ball on target, looking through it reminds me of ar type peep or on a garand. bb75

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I have always favored a peep over an open sight. I conducted a fairly extensive test shooting groups with a Marlin .22 (cheap and easy shooting) with a folding open rear and a quick detachable peep. With the peep my groups were round and uniform while with the open rear I may do as well as the peep for several shots but there would be one or two strays or "fliers", making a group twice as large as the peep.
I also find peeps faster to use than an open rear since I only have to put the bead on target and squeeze. African hunter John Taylor also thought very highly of peep sights.
I make a simple "lollipop" peep from thumb screws available at any hardware store. This is threaded into a 10-32 hole drilled and tapped in the barrel tang. Elevation is adjusted by turning the screw into or out of the tang and locked with a jam nut made from a sling swivel nut. Windage must be adjusted at the front sight.
Dillin's book The Kentucky Rifle shows several original flintlocks with peep sights and even full length tube sights, although they are by far in the minority.
Neither my sight nor the one pictured will be accepted at shoots which require "open sight only". However one can make the open sight a sliding fit in it's dovetail and install a set screw to anchor it on a scribed index mark so that it can easilly be removed or reinstalled. ::

 

[ktw]

Thanks Joel. I saw something similar mounted on a rifle TotW was selling a while back. You are the first person I've run into that is actually using one. I appreciate the report.

-ktw

 

[dant]

I put the same peep sight fron Track, on a Lancaster I put together. I haven't shot it alot but I'm very happy with it.I'm optically challanged also.

 

[ktw]

Thanks, dant. That makes two. ;-)

 

[twobirds]

I'm very interested in the Spanish tube sights you describe in your post. What kind of firearms did they come from? Any chance you could post photos?