Kibler has announced a Hawken Kit in the works.

[Comfortably_Numb]

In your case there are no Red coats to contend with your Brown Bess either in Ioway. Ho hum...

I shoot mostly old lever action marlins and winchesters. Still looking for Indians to go to war with but they are all inside thier casinos and won't come out.

 

[BS]

What should the drop at the heel be?
I like that The Hawken Shop uses 2.7/8".
I also like a wide butt plate with less curve.

 

[sturmkatze]

Here's Bob Roller's opinion on the Hawken Shop kit.


The stamping on the top of the pistol barrel is J&S Hawkens with a "s". I have an article coming out in the October Muzzle Blasts on this particular pistol. I am in agreement with Jim Gordon and Hanson that the "s" added to the name of Hawken is good reason to believe that the pistol, in its original flintlock configuration, is of eastern or European origin and not manufactured by the original Hawken shop in St. Louis BUT only sold through the Hawken shop.

The price of THE HAWKEN SHOP kit is $1400 and the quality of the parts and work done on them is worth it. The breech is made of #8620, X-rayed and fit to the barrel properly. The Rice barrel with a 1:48 twist has been stamped S. HAWKEN ST. LOUIS in the proper spot and dovetails have been cut for the front and rear sights and underlugs for the barrel keys, again in the proper spot. The lock on a T. Gibbons lock plate is finished, as are the double-set triggers. The underib has the 4 holes drilled and into the barrel, and the position of the two thimbles is positioned properly. All holes on the breech plug tang are dilled and countersunk and the 2 holes on the trigger bar for the tang screws have been positioned properly. The 2 holes on the buttplate and toeplate are also positioned properly, drilled and countersunk. The kit has the parts and instruction for making an original Hawken-style ramrod of hickory. With each and every component part of the kit is a sealed bag with the proper bolts or screws, PLUS and extra set. In other words, a lot of time and thought has gone into offering the component parts, so that you can assemble them in the proper place WITHOUT MAKING ANY MISTAKES. Time is money. Mistakes waste time. The final product is as close to as you can get to a late-period S. Hawken rifle.

The link I sent you says $1600. + so it’s a lot. Not going to be like a Kibler. Much rougher. Not even made in St. Louis anymore.

I don’t hate Hawken rifles, I just think most are not Hawken. They are half stocks and called that. Most can’t even call it the right name, the call it a Hawkins or something.

I didn’t insult you. You claim you’d have that and be a hunter. Maybe. I don’t know what you do in life now. Not everyone back then could even get a good trade our job. What training did you have to buy one? Hawken rifles were more of a well to do guy’s gun. Anyway. We are just talking. I find people’s belief of how the past was to be interesting. It was rough and not fun.

 

[Mike in FL]

My question is will the Hawkins barrel have a solid under lug [should be under rib]?

CNC machined into the bottom of the barrel?

H A W K E N. Why is it even the most ignorant historian or gun enthusiast can't spell it?

 

[sturmkatze]

Why Not?
A machined solid under rib.
No screw holes or rivets or soldier.
Quicker assembly.
Just a thought.

Machined into or out of the barrel?? Uh no. That would be a crazy amount of work.

 

[sturmkatze]

I shoot mostly old lever action marlins and winchesters. Still looking for Indians to go to war with but they are all inside thier casinos and won't come out.

I think he meant my ho-hum comment. Or not. I done be has a Hawken style… it’s a Lyman Great Plains. Close enough. Especially if I give it a diet. I have a nice Bess. I have a couple T/C rifles. Tennessee’s. We all like something different and we’re all change out likes over time. My Ak is still better. As is the h&k. It’s a relative.

Anyway gentlemen, none of these guns is really superior. They all have different traits.

 

[Kabulrocks]

Does it really matter how many? Bridger had one and that works for me. I can re-enact being Jim Bridger.

They cost $25. They couldn't scape that much up? I would have had I been born then. I wouldn't have been a trapper. I would have been a hunter for the brigade. My gun would have been a tool to make a living with.

The $25 cost is in the $600 to $700 range in 2023 money. That number was was mentioned in one of the seminars at the Hawken Classic.

Machined into or out of the barrel?? Uh no. That would be a crazy amount of work.

And not historically accurate.

 

[springfield art]

Well, I used to be into real Hawken rifles. Back when I was a teenager and all the club guys had their Thompson Center-fire Hawken rifles, I wanted the real deal. Obvious difference. Tastes change. Back then, I was this punk kid with a flintlock… the only one in town then.

I finally got a 1979 Lyman Great Plains. Is close as I need. No, I don’t care that it has a coil spring. It also doesn’t have the ugly roll engraving on the lock. It’s heavy though and only a .50 cal.

Anyway, plenty of mountain men carried other guns than a Hawken. Plenty. They were crazy priced then. Anyway, they aren’t as sleek and pretty as a Pennsylvania rifle or a southern gun. We all have our preferences. I’d rather a Kibler Long Land Brown Bess.

Also, as has been mentioned, The Hawken Shop makes a great repro, but it’s a kit. Not a snap together kit. Some of the resident problem children already have problems with one of Herrn Kibler’s guns, so that would cause them to cry here and need to take mydol. And numerous posts how it’s not their fault and such.

Original Hawkens were very expensive back in the 19th Century; that's why many did indeed carry more "regular" guns; they all couldn't have a Jaguar when a Ford would do.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

H A W K E N. Why is it even the most ignorant historian or gun enthusiast can't spell it?

Because they rely on handwritten contemporary sources in dusty archives to find out what they can about a Hawkin.
Eye kleened the haw kin wif a botil of likker eat was so foult.

 

[Crockford]

Dang, now twice a week someone will be posting "When will the Hawken be available?"...

I will probably ship about the same time as Goex

 

[yellowhammer]

I'd prefer a Fowler. But Happy with whatever Jim Does.

I'd like to see a percussion Woodsrunner option; and suggested it. Not interested in Hawkens. But agree; happy with whatever Jim does; I like his gumption.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

Machined into or out of the barrel?? Uh no. That would be a crazy amount of work.

Yes. Way I see there's 2 ways to get there. Cut it like that from a billet or forge-weld the rib. Nobody with the skill and tools to do it has the time. Crazy amount of work is an understatement. If someone is willing, you will have to cross his palm with much gold.

 

[Conquerordie]

I hope Kiblers next build is a copy of the rifle that Wallace Gusler builds in the Gunsmith of Williamsburg. Wallace did an ok job, but Kibler tech will make a better gun.

 

[gunsmithgreg]

I suggested that Jim look into the Hawken Shop kit. I'm also wondering why you guys never looked into it? It's as authentic as you can get. Kit made from the original blueprints and the parts made on the original machines.

What's not to like? Providing you like a heavy gun?

Thanks for the mention. The Hawken Shop.

 

[user 36911]

Thanks for the mention.

Is the Hawken Shop yours?

 

[gunsmithgreg]

Is the Hawken Shop yours?

Yes, we bought it from Art Ressel in 1990.

 

[user 36911]

Yes, we bought it from Art Ressel in 1990.

Good to meet you. I came real close to buying a kit from you. Still might.

Can you settle a discussion? Do you have any of the original machinery from the Hawken Bros?

 

[Scota@4570]

Why Not?
A machined solid under rib.
No screw holes or rivets or soldier.
Quicker assembly.
Just a thought.

The outside diameter of the barrel blank would need to be about 1 1/2" or larger to machine the rib as part of the barrel. Green Mountain, the blank supplier, does not make them that fat.

I bet screws will be used for the rib. I bet the instructions will recommend using a Loctite shaft sealant, possibly provided, to make the rib attachment permanent. The screws will be filed off to look like rivets.

The thimbles are steel. I's bet that the thimbles will come pre bonded to the rib with silver solder. That can be jigged up quickly and a silver braze paste used with an induction heater. Large scale production brazing is done that way. M700 bolt handles for instance.

Old money vs new? Gold was $20 per ounce for a very long time. A Colt SAA has always cost about one ounce ounce of gold. An ounce of gold is worth about $2000 right now, as is the Colt.

 

[BillyC]

BLASPHEMER

 

[sturmkatze]

Yes, we bought it from Art Ressel in 1990.

I knew it was Art somebody. Here’s your chance to talk this up. I know there’s tons of questions.