Kentuckian Questions

[Pan]

Hi i`m a "Newbie", living in Australia, and have got my hands on a 44cal. Kentuckian,Perc.Cap, seems to be made by Euroarms in Italy.
I can`t find any info on the net about this rifle,and would like a few tips..
I`m firing a .430" PRB, with 30gn fff,Bore butter lube, I tried it with 50gn fff to start but find that 30 is a bit more accurate at 50 yds, though has a lot less ooomph!
My questions...How can I get an approx date of manufacture, approx starting load, and the correct nipple size, the one it the gun is 1/4 x 28 but feels a bit loose at the start of the thread, though does tighten fully, and finally Is it worth having?or were these a lemon?and dangerous...
Markings are JAGER- KENTUCKIAN .44cal. S/N A6413...PN xx9, and Black Powder Only.(all stamped on Barrel)It has brass metalware and patchbox, with a single trigger.
This is my first ML and the bug has got me already, so I want to start off on the right track.
So thanks for your advice,
Roger.

 

[condorsp]

Howdy Pan, The XX9 indicates it was made in 1973.

 

[Pan]

Thanks Condorsp,for your reply, it`s hard here in OZ to actually find anyone to ask, what seem like trivial questions about these firearms...i`m seriously thinking of packing me and the ole lady up and coming over...
Roger.

 

[William O.]

I think you're on the right track, usually starting loads are the same as caliber, so for yours it would be 45 grains. If it's accurate enough for your purposes then stick with 30 grains.

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the Forum.

The nipple threads commonly used in the Spanish made muzzleloading rifles is a M6 X 1mm.

This equates roughly with a .236-25.4 thread.

A 1/4-28 (.250-28) threaded nipple should not fit but the fact that it does says that perhaps someone rethreaded the nipple hole in the barrel.

If this was done, there would be some thread damage resulting in some partial threads.

If the threads in the nipple hole look somewhat damaged I would keep my powder loads on the light side, perhaps using 45 grains as a maximum load.

If on the other hand the hole had been welded up, redrilled and tapped for a 1/4-28 thread and the threads appear to be full and undamaged you should be able to safely use up to 80 grains of powder under a patched roundball. :thumbsup:

 

[hounddog]

Zonie, I have a kentuckian,mine is made by armsport in Italy, Is armsport a division of investa arms. I went to TOW both Lyman and investarms use 6.75 nipples. I believe that is what my kentuckian takes some one out there clarify this please. If the nipple hole has been damaged and nipple is loose like he says. Here is a sure fix. get tap and drill for 5/16x24 nipples and redrill for that size. TOW carries 5/16x24 nipples and they cost no more than any other. Why some fellows dont have at least 1 spare nipple for their guns is beond me. It always good to have backup nipples aint expensive. Depending upon what original thread size of nipple is, other MAY be an option, we all need to be sure what it is supposed to take. You all have me a wondering what it is for sure. then we can continue to help the feller with his situation confused hounddog

 

[Pan]

Hi,
Thanks for the advice,
I just rechecked all the threads and sizes.
I removed the Powder drum, it is 1/2" dia. with a 5/16 x 24TPI thread, and an inspection/cleaning screw on the closed end, and the nipple, according to my thread gauge, measures 1/4" x 28 TPI, so it seems someone has done as you suggested Houndog!
This ML has "Euroarms Bresica Italy" stamped on the barrel, maybe they made them with imperial threads, and not Metric?
I`ll buy a spare drum and 3 or 4 nipples, and as we can`t readily buy them over here, can you guys suggest a decent retailer in the US?or is that against Forum ettiquette/
I`ve got more answers from you all in the last two days, than I have from dealers here in OZ in the last 3 MONTHS!
Many Thanks,
Roger

 

[hounddog]

Pan, thats good info, that means your drum size is 5/16x24 thread and your nipple size is 1/4x28 thats very good both are common sizes and are easy to find. There are many suppliers out there The one I use most is Track of the wolf e mail address www.trackofthewolf.com. they will have everything you need and are knowledgeable if you have any questions, A spare drum is good to have as are spare nipples. I have been shooting and gunsmithing BP guns over 40 years now, your nipple showing a little slop when you start is not necessarily a bad thing, It just means nipple has been pulled frequently to clean. as long as your nipple threads are in good shape and it tightens down tight as you said. I think you are ok. Like Zonie said 80 gr is max for a 44/45 cal I use 60 to 65 gr in my guns for a hunting load and even less for plinking. You being new to the sport dont fall for the more powder the better line. use a moderate charge, there is less fouling, better auccracy and is safer. do the brylcreme thing a little dab will do you yours hounddog

 

[Kapow]

What town are you in sunshine? There's a few of us about where you are but not many. I'm no expert by any standards but I'm starting to get a handle on it. Happy to help you if I can.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Humm, something doesn't seem quite right here. I recall the "Kentuckian" as sold by Dixie Gun Works and others as having a bolster breech, not a removable drum. Scanning through old catalogs confirms that in both rifle and pistol versions the percussions were bolster breech, no drums.
My first flintlock, about 40 years ago, was a Kentuckian. After much frustration and many misfires, I converted it to percussion using a nipple drum. Maybe you have my old rifle, though I don't know how it would have gotten down-under. :haha: Anyhow, I do think your rifle might have been converted from flint.

 

[Vairochana]

mate, there are a fair few of us around in Oz,
There are also some guys who really know their stuff in Northern NSW especially in Armidale.
Also a few dealers who carry various supplies.
PM me.

 

[Zonie]

My apologies. I don't know why I got off on the idea that this gun was Spanish. That said, forget everything I said about the nipple threads.

My first longrifle was a Kentuckian in Flint. I bought it back about 1971, and indeed, it is an Italian gun.

Although my gun was a flintlock, the vent was drilled directly into the side of the barrel so with that in mind I can say the percussion model would have very likely have drilled the hole for the drum directly into the side of the barrel too.

There is nothing wrong with this design. In fact, most custom made percussion guns install the nipple drum in this same manner rather than using some form chambered breech.

With the Italian made guns, the common nipple size is a M6 X .75mm which equates with a UN .236-34 thread (if one existed)

 

[hounddog]

Pan and cyote joe, It is apparent be the info that pans gun and my gun are not the same, they are both called Kentuckain and thats it. Pans gun uses a drum and nipple, my armsport gun has a bolster breechplug and are different manufactures,I con sider my armsport gun to be a better than average factory gun, not a entry level gun, has good wood excellent wood to matal fit , and for a factory gun is pretty original. Oops I almost forgot to mention mine is a 45 and a tackdriver. Pans gun must be a true440 because he is having to use a 430 ball. I have a true 440, dbbl pistol(rifled) and use a 429 ball. So cyotie My gun is probably closer to what you remember from dixie at least it sounds like it yours hounddog

 

[hounddog]

widows son, thats is outstanding, at least ole pan is not all by his lonesome. I have been doing BP awhile now I have found out the older I get the less (dumber) I know. I dont consider myself a know it all and I am ALWAYS open to new ideals and opnions, I really enjoy the forum and guys It dont hurt a bit to say I got it wrong You were right. Now you know why this old houndog stays on the porch I gettin senile and may get lost iffin I getta the front yard he haw hounddog

 

[Pan]

Just got home from the range, thanks for all the discussion re my Kentuckian..
"Kapow", I`m situated just Nth. of Kempsey, on the beach at Stuarts Point, and shoot at the SSAA range at Kempsey, we`ve got about half a dozen ML shooters that meet on the second Sunday of the month...not enough range time for me, so I shoot on Thursdays as well.
"Coyote joe" I don`t know if it has been converted from Flint, as I haven`t had that much to do with MLs,so wouldn`t really know what to look for, but it sure is a possibility, although the fitting of the drum and nipple does look like a "Factory" job, and the timberwork on the stock in that area doesn`t look like it has been messed with.
"Widows son", mate...how do I PM you.??and I`ll get right on to it.
I`ve packed up a hundred balls, a pound of powder and a roll of "Ticking" and I`m heading out west tomorrow,(to Inverell) to spend a few days of solid shooting with it,just to get a "Feel" and learn a bit more about the guns likes and dislikes,and get a bit familiar with the workings, and I`m picking up the 45 Cal. Flintlock from the shop on the way out there...so I`ve a got a pretty full-on weekend, I`ll let you all know how it goes, and thanks again for all your inspiration and advice.I`m taking a .22cal rifle as well, just so I don`t starve...lol.
Oh yeah.. It is definately .440" not .450" with about 1 in 38" twist which is a bit of a rarity it seems, from what I`ve read,,,,,sheee-it! should I be shooting PRBs or Minis with this twist rate? just struck me!!
Cheers,
Roger

 

[Pan]

Sorry "Houndog" missed your reply, The threads do tighten up well, and dont look at all damaged, they just seemed a bit loose at the start of the thread, but I have cleaned them and ran a thread file over them, and I`m sure they are fine.
Can I use loctite or some sort of thread sealant on the drum?as a saftey or is that a No-No?
Thanks for the email addy for TOW, made contact last night, and had a good look at their site, have a few nipples on the way,but I`ve decided to turn up a new drum,that can`t be too hard to make, It`ll give me something constructive to do at night.
Cheers,
Roger

 

[Pan]

Zonie, i checked the thread pitch and it is definately 1/4" x 28TPI, so this could be a "mod". Maybe a new drum and nipple fitted?
The drum screws directly into the barrel as you stated, so this could have been drilled, re-tapped and this current drum and nipple inserted?
Probably never know for sure...the guy i bought it from lives up in the next state, It would pay to make a phone call and get some "History" from him i suppose..as he bought it new over 30 yrs ago it seems by the serial number (it`s a 1973 model)
Thanks for your input,
Roger.

 

..PN xx9,

It's been answered, but this is for future reference.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/236956/

 

[hounddog]

Pan, that 1 in 38 twist sounds a little fast, We are seeing some inlines and also some traditional bbls sold in 1 in 28 and 1 in 32 twist these are specifically for the new fangled sabot style bulletts. As a general rule the larger thge calaber the slower the twist. the slower twist are best suited to round ball. Many manufactures use a 1 in 48 twist that handles r b well and also maxi ball minie bullets and so on. Is kind of a comprimise twist, all of my rifles have 1 in 48 twist and handle anytyhing I want to shoot. To be honest about all i shoot anymore is round ball, have used the others in years past. You just cant beat a good old round ball. I am not saying your bbl is not 1 in 38 but would be a little unsual. If it shoots to suit you dont worry about just make smoke and have fun yours hounddog

 

[Zonie]

I don't recall what the twist rate on my Kentuckian was but I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like a 1:38 or 1:40.

These older rifles were made long before the idea of wrapping slugs in plastic was used in muzzleloaders. For that reason, they probably have fairly deep rifling grooves.

Actually, the rifling groove depth is the real indicator to determine whether the barrel is made for patched roundballs or modern projectiles.

Deep rifling (.005 or more) doesn't lend itself to the modern things and shallow rifling (.004 or less) doesn't lend itself to shooting patched roundballs (with hunting loads).

For instance I have a muzzleloading Schutzen which has a barrel with .0015 deep grooves. At 50 yards it won't keep patched roundballs on the paper let alone hit the x ring.