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A Comparison: The Zouave and the Mississippi

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I don't know if this will be of interest to anybody or not, but here goes...

My brother contacted me about a friend of his who had an 1863 muzzleloading rifle with a charge in it that didn't "go off." The fellow needed help clearing his gun. With some trepidation, I accepted the challenge.

Right from the get-go, I want to say the shooter is a good man. Please, no disparaging remarks. He was new to muzzleloading and got some bad information about how to proceed. Let's focus on the issues, and not the man.

He apparently loaded two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets under a projectile variously described as a Minie bullet, a patched round ball, a patched Minie bullet, or a Minie with a patch under it. It failed to fire, so he removed the nipple and "threw it in the truck," and carried it around for an undisclosed amount of time, looking for someone to help.

The rifle turned out to be a M1863 Remington Zouave reproduction. The side of the barrel was stamped ARMI JAGER ITALY, and it had a provisional proofmark from Gardone, the generic Italian "PN" proofmark, a serial number, and XX9 stamped on the off side of the breech. I did not find the expected date code, which is usually a little box with either Roman numerals or a combination of alphabet letters. I'm assuming the XX9 is the date code. If this is the same as XXIX, that would indicate 1973 as the date of manufacture.

I'm all about safety. I considered this a loaded gun. I thought I might unbreech it, but the plug wouldn't budge. This rifle, incidentally, had a bolster on the barrel and a simple, old fashioned breechplug, not the patent breech you might expect. I considered options, and finally elected to just use a ball puller. The bullet was out in about one minute...

View attachment 161352

... and before another minute elapsed, the two Pyrodex pellets were out...

View attachment 161353

This was my first experience with Pyrodex pellets. I'm sure they have a place in the blackpowder world, but it's not a place I visit. Anyway, I then committed the most egregious of sins... I blew through the barrel. It was clear.

This was actually a very nice rifle. The brass castings were robust, metal and wood were nicely finished, and wood to metal fit was excellent. Considering its age, and excepting the bore, it was in pretty good shape. I decided to clean the rifle properly. A preliminary hot water flush produced an effluent I won't describe. When the water started coming out a little less filthy, I pushed in a jag and patch. At this point, let me say that there is a species of devil that takes up residence in neglected muzzleloader barrels. I call it the Patch Demon. Push in a patch and he will grab it, and he won't let go. This particular Patch Demon severely taxed my considerable fund of profanities, but I eventually won the battle. All I can say is the barrel is not clean, but it is cleaner than it was, and with a coat of LSA in there, I hope it won't get any worse. In any event, I found the rifling is still strong:

View attachment 161354

I advised the owner on some ways to clean it a little better, and it should be shootable.

However, I found both of the nipples that came with the rifle (both 8-1mm but one sized for musket caps and one for #11) had been bored out to about .080", which is what reenactors use for blanks, but I consider them unsafe for live fire. I advised the fellow to get a new nipple, with a proper flash hole in the .026" - .030" range if he wants to shoot bullets. I hope he follows through.

In any event, I was very favorably impressed by the quality of this rifle. I had not heard of Armi Jager, but apparently they produced a lot of guns in years past. I had never really paid much attention to Zouave rifles, either, but since I had one in my hands, it reminded me of the earlier M1841 Mississippi rifle and I thought it might be fun to compare this nice-quality M1863 Zouave with an original M1841 Mississippi that lives at my house. I did a little amateur photo shoot in my back yard. In all of these pictures, the Zouave is above, and the Mississippi is below.

View attachment 161357

You can see the similarities in size and overall appearance, but I had not realized there were so many differences. The patchboxes are obviously different sizes, but side-by-side, I discovered the buttplates are different. The 1841 plate is flat, and the '63 is curved. This results in a slight difference in the length of pull, which is 13-3/4" for the 1841 and 13-1/2" for the Zouave. Both have a drop at the heel of 2-3/4".

View attachment 161358

The locks and breeches are very similar, but you can see the folding leaf sight on the Zouave, and a simple "Kentucky" sight on the Mississippi:

View attachment 161359

The Zouave has washers for the side nails, while the Mississippi has a sideplate:

View attachment 161361

The forward barrel bands are also different, and the Zouave has a bayonet lug on the side of the barrel which the Mississippi lacks:

View attachment 161362

I also weighed them. The Zouave was 9 pounds, 1 ounce, while the Mississippi was four ounces heavier. I would attribute this to the smaller caliber (.54 versus .58), but also the larger patchbox lid (which is quite thick on both rifles) and the larger forward barrel band on the Mississippi. Both have approximately 33" barrels.

I did what I felt I could in the time that I had. The subject rifle is now on its way home. I spoke with the owner on the phone, and we had a good conversation. He said he bought it a few months ago in a local gun store as a consignment sale, and he paid $325 for it. I would say he got a pretty good deal. I hope he enjoys his rifle, shoots it safely, and cleans it properly.

If you are still with me, thanks for reading. I get a lot of enjoyment puttering around with old guns, and thought I might share some of the joy.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
Great little review. Thanks for taking the time to write and share it with us.
 
Hello Men, Just stumbled across this thread and thought I would post info and pictures
of my "E Whitney US, N. Haven 1851". I have tried to get good photos of the rifle and its markings. I lucked out a few years ago at a swap meet when a guy offered me this rifle as it was missing the wood foreshock. Otherwise it was sound as the day made. I cocked the rifle and looked it over and it was obviously in excellent shooting condition. I ordered a replica fore stock and had a good friend who is an excellent rifle builder replace it for me. He was abled to match the wood color almost perfect. I have since fired it with patched .515 balls and .520 balls. It shoots beautifully. I hope the proof marks and what I suppose are the proof guys initials. So here are pics and if anyone has any questions I will be glad to clarify those not clear in the photo.
Oh yeah...the ramrod is a replacement from Dixie Gunworks.
 

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Hello Men, Just stumbled across this thread and thought I would post info and pictures
of my "E Whitney US, N. Haven 1851". I have tried to get good photos of the rifle and its markings. I lucked out a few years ago at a swap meet when a guy offered me this rifle as it was missing the wood foreshock. Otherwise it was sound as the day made. I cocked the rifle and looked it over and it was obviously in excellent shooting condition. I ordered a replica fore stock and had a good friend who is an excellent rifle builder replace it for me. He was abled to match the wood color almost perfect. I have since fired it with patched .515 balls and .520 balls. It shoots beautifully. I hope the proof marks and what I suppose are the proof guys initials. So here are pics and if anyone has any questions I will be glad to clarify those not clear in the photo.
Oh yeah...the ramrod is a replacement from Dixie Gunworks.
 
Since you are a MLF supporter you have some time to edit or delete a post. There should be the word "edit" on the bottom of your post in the left or right corner. Good luck
 
You and others may be interested in this good article on when they added adjustable sights and a bayonet lug in the years they converted them to .58 caliber.


I have always liked and wanted a Mississippi rifle. I never knew there were so many variations and mods done on the gun. I didn't know some were converted to .58 caliber. I guess the Pedersoli version is actuall accurate and based on historical rifles.
 
Hello Men, Just stumbled across this thread and thought I would post info and pictures
of my "E Whitney US, N. Haven 1851". I have tried to get good photos of the rifle and its markings. I lucked out a few years ago at a swap meet when a guy offered me this rifle as it was missing the wood foreshock. Otherwise it was sound as the day made. I cocked the rifle and looked it over and it was obviously in excellent shooting condition. I ordered a replica fore stock and had a good friend who is an excellent rifle builder replace it for me. He was abled to match the wood color almost perfect. I have since fired it with patched .515 balls and .520 balls. It shoots beautifully. I hope the proof marks and what I suppose are the proof guys initials. So here are pics and if anyone has any questions I will be glad to clarify those not clear in the photo.
Oh yeah...the ramrod is a replacement from Dixie Gunworks.
Looks like your rear sight may be reversed.
 
Bob,

What is LSA that you used to protect the bore?

Found the answer, MIL oil LSA is a petroleum-based lubricant mixed with a combination detergent, oxidation inhibitor, and corrosion inhibitors.
Thank you for posting, @Longrangehunter

It looks like you found the technical answer, but I have a few thoughts and observations to add.

I think "LSA" is one of those military acronyms, and I always figured it stood for "Lubricant, Small Arms." We used to see it nearly everywhere, at gun shows and surplus stores, in little green plastic squeeze bottles, but I haven't seen any of these for sale in years. When it was becoming harder to find, I did some serious searching and found Sarco had it for sale online in one quart cans for a very reasonable price. I bought three quarts, which will be more than a lifetime supply for me. I refill my old squeeze bottles from the can.

LSA is wonderful stuff. It is like a very soft grease, or a highly viscous liquid. The shelf life seems indefinite. It does not evaporate, which makes it an excellent surface protectant for short or long-term storage of guns and tools. It is also a superb lubricant for moving parts.

It is petroleum based, as you noted, and many knowledgeable people will tell you not to use petroleum based products on blackpowder guns. All I can say is that I use LSA as a lubricant and surface protectant on all of my guns, and I've had no problems. I do wipe the bore before loading the first round, but I would do that anyway. I like it a lot.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
Thanks for the info Bob!

I've used this stuff for at least 20+ years and maybe even 30! I shoot a lot, 2K-2.5K a year, but some of my rifles that I hunt with don't get used all that much so I like to clean them and wipe the bore down with this stuff.

Can't say it has failed me, never seen a brown patch after sitting for a year or two. That said the bottle is almost empty, so I'll have to look for some LSA and try it out!

Thanks again for the reply!

Cheers,

D8C3D39E-081A-4042-AA79-31D99F14E217.jpeg
 
I love Mississippi Rifles. I bought this Euroarms .54 Mississippi from a Reenactor who made it look like a .58 Harper's Ferry rearsenal. By Striking it bright and adding a ladder rear sight.

However , I have seen pics of Mississippi's rearsenaled in this way that were left in .54, and used the .54 Mississippi/Lorenz cartridges so he was still "correct " with this.

I bought it to shoot with patched round balls to make it a "grab and go" range popper I could just take a bunch of .530 balls and patches with for some casual range fun. But it turned out to be a good shooter with .534 Minies, so you just never know. This shoots well with round balls too
but I feel like I need another one in .54 to leave alone and just to shoot RB's.
20221202_181411.jpg


20221202_181351.jpg
 
Thanks for sharing that. Your comments explain a lot about the Zouave rifle's design.



That's a nice rifle! I understand that when the War Between the States got well under way, both sides needed arms. The M1841 was issued as a .54 caliber, to fire a patched .525" round ball. The newer Springfields were .58 caliber with progressive rifling for Minie bullets. Logistically, it made more sense to have all the guns shooting the same ammunition. By that time, a lot of the Mississippi rifles were in civilian hands, but the US Government had at least some of them, that were still in government possession, bored out to .58 caliber and re-rifled to handle the standard Minie bullets. The arsenal modification also included replacing the sights. I was thinking they also added a bayonet lug, but I don't see this on your rifle, and the front sight appears too tall to allow mounting a socket bayonet. So, it looks as if your rifle is one of these arsenal-modified ones. These have their own historical significance, and you have a real prize.



Thanks for the comments! My original Mississippi has had a few knocks, and stampings on the barrel and lock are pretty faint, but it is still solid and everything works. I wanted to check out the bore, but that's done now, and I believe it is safe for shooting. I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet, but I will soon.



Thanks, Gus! That is a serious ball puller, and it is the one from Track. The sharp point, tapered body, and super-sharp threads allow it to get a real bite on a pure lead bullet. This ball puller will also grab a lost patch if one comes off a jag "down yonder." These don't cost much, and they have potential for saving a shooter a lot of grief. A good item to keep in one's shot pouch.

I believe Dave Crissali, of The Lucky Bag, makes a device with a short drill bit mounted in a centering collar, to screw into the end of a rod. It is used to bore a pilot hole in a ball to be pulled. This makes it easier to get a ball puller screwed into the projectile, and also reduces the amount a ball will bulge. However, I think he only sells these as part of a set of ramrod attachments, so it may not be available as an individual unit. It sounds like a good idea. However, the ball puller from Track works pretty well as it is. It sure did the job for me.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
The conversions seemed to be pretty haphazard , some were left in .54, some rebored to .58

It was probably dependent on who was doing the rearsenal , and maybe they left the rifles in .54 with good bores in .54 , and they could use the Lorenz cartridges.....and the rifles with roached bores were bored out to .58

We'll never really know, it was just a rushed effort to get usable rifles out for the war, on both sides.

Just like when you see .69 muskets that were converted from flintlock, had ladder sights added but were never rifled........I ask , why?? Because there were huge numbers of weapons needed and anything serviceable was refurbished and issued. No rifling fixture? Just slap sights on it anyway, we need guns..
 
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