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A Comparison: The Zouave and the Mississippi

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I don't know if this will be of interest to anybody or not, but here goes...

My brother contacted me about a friend of his who had an 1863 muzzleloading rifle with a charge in it that didn't "go off." The fellow needed help clearing his gun. With some trepidation, I accepted the challenge.

Right from the get-go, I want to say the shooter is a good man. Please, no disparaging remarks. He was new to muzzleloading and got some bad information about how to proceed. Let's focus on the issues, and not the man.

He apparently loaded two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets under a projectile variously described as a Minie bullet, a patched round ball, a patched Minie bullet, or a Minie with a patch under it. It failed to fire, so he removed the nipple and "threw it in the truck," and carried it around for an undisclosed amount of time, looking for someone to help.

The rifle turned out to be a M1863 Remington Zouave reproduction. The side of the barrel was stamped ARMI JAGER ITALY, and it had a provisional proofmark from Gardone, the generic Italian "PN" proofmark, a serial number, and XX9 stamped on the off side of the breech. I did not find the expected date code, which is usually a little box with either Roman numerals or a combination of alphabet letters. I'm assuming the XX9 is the date code. If this is the same as XXIX, that would indicate 1973 as the date of manufacture.

I'm all about safety. I considered this a loaded gun. I thought I might unbreech it, but the plug wouldn't budge. This rifle, incidentally, had a bolster on the barrel and a simple, old fashioned breechplug, not the patent breech you might expect. I considered options, and finally elected to just use a ball puller. The bullet was out in about one minute...

Bullet & Puller.jpg

... and before another minute elapsed, the two Pyrodex pellets were out...

Pulled Bullet & Pellets.jpg

This was my first experience with Pyrodex pellets. I'm sure they have a place in the blackpowder world, but it's not a place I visit. Anyway, I then committed the most egregious of sins... I blew through the barrel. It was clear.

This was actually a very nice rifle. The brass castings were robust, metal and wood were nicely finished, and wood to metal fit was excellent. Considering its age, and excepting the bore, it was in pretty good shape. I decided to clean the rifle properly. A preliminary hot water flush produced an effluent I won't describe. When the water started coming out a little less filthy, I pushed in a jag and patch. At this point, let me say that there is a species of devil that takes up residence in neglected muzzleloader barrels. I call it the Patch Demon. Push in a patch and he will grab it, and he won't let go. This particular Patch Demon severely taxed my considerable fund of profanities, but I eventually won the battle. All I can say is the barrel is not clean, but it is cleaner than it was, and with a coat of LSA in there, I hope it won't get any worse. In any event, I found the rifling is still strong:

Zouave Bore.jpg

I advised the owner on some ways to clean it a little better, and it should be shootable.

However, I found both of the nipples that came with the rifle (both 8-1mm but one sized for musket caps and one for #11) had been bored out to about .080", which is what reenactors use for blanks, but I consider them unsafe for live fire. I advised the fellow to get a new nipple, with a proper flash hole in the .026" - .030" range if he wants to shoot bullets. I hope he follows through.

In any event, I was very favorably impressed by the quality of this rifle. I had not heard of Armi Jager, but apparently they produced a lot of guns in years past. I had never really paid much attention to Zouave rifles, either, but since I had one in my hands, it reminded me of the earlier M1841 Mississippi rifle and I thought it might be fun to compare this nice-quality M1863 Zouave with an original M1841 Mississippi that lives at my house. I did a little amateur photo shoot in my back yard. In all of these pictures, the Zouave is above, and the Mississippi is below.

Full Length.jpg

You can see the similarities in size and overall appearance, but I had not realized there were so many differences. The patchboxes are obviously different sizes, but side-by-side, I discovered the buttplates are different. The 1841 plate is flat, and the '63 is curved. This results in a slight difference in the length of pull, which is 13-3/4" for the 1841 and 13-1/2" for the Zouave. Both have a drop at the heel of 2-3/4".

Buttstocks.jpg

The locks and breeches are very similar, but you can see the folding leaf sight on the Zouave, and a simple "Kentucky" sight on the Mississippi:

Locks & Breeches.jpg

The Zouave has washers for the side nails, while the Mississippi has a sideplate:

Off Side of Breech.jpg

The forward barrel bands are also different, and the Zouave has a bayonet lug on the side of the barrel which the Mississippi lacks:

Rifles 1.jpg

I also weighed them. The Zouave was 9 pounds, 1 ounce, while the Mississippi was four ounces heavier. I would attribute this to the smaller caliber (.54 versus .58), but also the larger patchbox lid (which is quite thick on both rifles) and the larger forward barrel band on the Mississippi. Both have approximately 33" barrels.

I did what I felt I could in the time that I had. The subject rifle is now on its way home. I spoke with the owner on the phone, and we had a good conversation. He said he bought it a few months ago in a local gun store as a consignment sale, and he paid $325 for it. I would say he got a pretty good deal. I hope he enjoys his rifle, shoots it safely, and cleans it properly.

If you are still with me, thanks for reading. I get a lot of enjoyment puttering around with old guns, and thought I might share some of the joy.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
Last edited:
Thanks for taking the time to put this together for us. I do not have a rifle of this style, but I can appreciate them just the same.
 
I have owned both rifles although not at the same time. The Zouave I bought in the late 1960s, IIRC, and it was also a decent, good shooting rifle both with minies and prb. It eventually got sold after a few years. It was a .58 of course.

The Mississippi US M1841 I ordered special about 20 years ago because I wanted it in the original .54. The 1841 shot like a "house-a-fire" with very small groups using round ball. It shot okay with conicals but nothing like prb. My example is as well fitted & finished as any rifle I've owned. While I never weighed the Zouave I did weigh the 1841, it came out just a tad under 10.5 lbs. I found it rather heavy to carry around in the woods yet did hunt with it and kill deer. The stock is excellent walnut and the piece gives an impression of being a solid, very well built rifle. Of the two the 1841 is by far the better rifle in every way. Not that the repro Zouave wasn't a decent rifle, it was, just not in the same league as this 1841.
 
Thanks for all the kind responses!

@hanshi , who made your Mississippi rifle? It looks like a really nice one.

The Mississippi pictured in post #1 shows its age but is all original, as far as I can tell. It even has the original, spare nipple screwed in its place in the patchbox. The markings on the lockplate are very faint, but I can make out US in front of the hammer and New Haven 1850 on the tail of the lockplate. I've had it for a little while, but haven't shot it yet. My brother brought over a bore scope recently and we took a good look. It has some small, scattered areas of deep pitting, but the rifling looks good, and I believe it's safe to shoot with sensible loads. I hope to get it out to the range soon.

@Flint62Smoothie , thanks for the tip on the Armi Jager Zouave for sale. I've seen a few reproductions by other makers that were pretty rough, but I was very favorably impressed with the overall quality of the Armi Jager rifle described in the first post.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
Great read and in fo Bob, I used to have a Mississippi, put one of thee long brass telescope on it. It shot fine but I noticed a slight bulge in the barrel, some one, previous owner, must have short ramed a ball and fired it. Didn't seem to affect it
 
I have owned both rifles although not at the same time. The Zouave I bought in the late 1960s, IIRC, and it was also a decent, good shooting rifle both with minies and prb. It eventually got sold after a few years. It was a .58 of course.

The Mississippi US M1841 I ordered special about 20 years ago because I wanted it in the original .54. The 1841 shot like a "house-a-fire" with very small groups using round ball. It shot okay with conicals but nothing like prb. My example is as well fitted & finished as any rifle I've owned. While I never weighed the Zouave I did weigh the 1841, it came out just a tad under 10.5 lbs. I found it rather heavy to carry around in the woods yet did hunt with it and kill deer. The stock is excellent walnut and the piece gives an impression of being a solid, very well built rifle. Of the two the 1841 is by far the better rifle in every way. Not that the repro Zouave wasn't a decent rifle, it was, just not in the same league as this 1841.
I have a Miss now, had one or two others. (Repros) One was by Bernadelli and so marked on the buttplate.
 
I have owned both rifles although not at the same time. The Zouave I bought in the late 1960s, IIRC, and it was also a decent, good shooting rifle both with minies and prb. It eventually got sold after a few years. It was a .58 of course.

The Mississippi US M1841 I ordered special about 20 years ago because I wanted it in the original .54. The 1841 shot like a "house-a-fire" with very small groups using round ball. It shot okay with conicals but nothing like prb. My example is as well fitted & finished as any rifle I've owned. While I never weighed the Zouave I did weigh the 1841, it came out just a tad under 10.5 lbs. I found it rather heavy to carry around in the woods yet did hunt with it and kill deer. The stock is excellent walnut and the piece gives an impression of being a solid, very well built rifle. Of the two the 1841 is by far the better rifle in every way. Not that the repro Zouave wasn't a decent rifle, it was, just not in the same league as this 1841.
I have a Miss now, had one or two others. (Repros) One was by Bernadelli and so marked on the buttplate.
I don't know if this will be of interest to anybody or not, but here goes...

My brother contacted me about a friend of his who had an 1863 muzzleloading rifle with a charge in it that didn't "go off." The fellow needed help clearing his gun. With some trepidation, I accepted the challenge.

Right from the get-go, I want to say the shooter is a good man. Please, no disparaging remarks. He was new to muzzleloading and got some bad information about how to proceed. Let's focus on the issues, and not the man.

He apparently loaded two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets under a projectile variously described as a Minie bullet, a patched round ball, a patched Minie bullet, or a Minie with a patch under it. It failed to fire, so he removed the nipple and "threw it in the truck," and carried it around for an undisclosed amount of time, looking for someone to help.

The rifle turned out to be a M1863 Remington Zouave reproduction. The side of the barrel was stamped ARMI JAGER ITALY, and it had a provisional proofmark from Gardone, the generic Italian "PN" proofmark, a serial number, and XX9 stamped on the off side of the breech. I did not find the expected date code, which is usually a little box with either Roman numerals or a combination of alphabet letters. I'm assuming the XX9 is the date code. If this is the same as XXIX, that would indicate 1973 as the date of manufacture.

I'm all about safety. I considered this a loaded gun. I thought I might unbreech it, but the plug wouldn't budge. This rifle, incidentally, had a bolster on the barrel and a simple, old fashioned breechplug, not the patent breech you might expect. I considered options, and finally elected to just use a ball puller. The bullet was out in about one minute...

View attachment 161352

... and before another minute elapsed, the two Pyrodex pellets were out...

View attachment 161353

This was my first experience with Pyrodex pellets. I'm sure they have a place in the blackpowder world, but it's not a place I visit. Anyway, I then committed the most egregious of sins... I blew through the barrel. It was clear.

This was actually a very nice rifle. The brass castings were robust, metal and wood were nicely finished, and wood to metal fit was excellent. Considering its age, and excepting the bore, it was in pretty good shape. I decided to clean the rifle properly. A preliminary hot water flush produced an effluent I won't describe. When the water started coming out a little less filthy, I pushed in a jag and patch. At this point, let me say that there is a species of devil that takes up residence in neglected muzzleloader barrels. I call it the Patch Demon. Push in a patch and he will grab it, and he won't let go. This particular Patch Demon severely taxed my considerable fund of profanities, but I eventually won the battle. All I can say is the barrel is not clean, but it is cleaner than it was, and with a coat of LSA in there, I hope it won't get any worse. In any event, I found the rifling is still strong:

View attachment 161354

I advised the owner on some ways to clean it a little better, and it should be shootable.

However, I found both of the nipples that came with the rifle (both 8-1mm but one sized for musket caps and one for #11) had been bored out to about .080", which is what reenactors use for blanks, but I consider them unsafe for live fire. I advised the fellow to get a new nipple, with a proper flash hole in the .026" - .030" range if he wants to shoot bullets. I hope he follows through.

In any event, I was very favorably impressed by the quality of this rifle. I had not heard of Armi Jager, but apparently they produced a lot of guns in years past. I had never really paid much attention to Zouave rifles, either, but since I had one in my hands, it reminded me of the earlier M1841 Mississippi rifle and I thought it might be fun to compare this nice-quality M1863 Zouave with an original M1841 Mississippi that lives at my house. I did a little amateur photo shoot in my back yard. In all of these pictures, the Zouave is above, and the Mississippi is below.

View attachment 161357

You can see the similarities in size and overall appearance, but I had not realized there were so many differences. The patchboxes are obviously different sizes, but side-by-side, I discovered the buttplates are different. The 1841 plate is flat, and the '63 is curved. This results in a slight difference in the length of pull, which is 13-3/4" for the 1841 and 13-1/2" for the Zouave. Both have a drop at the heel of 2-3/4".

View attachment 161358

The locks and breeches are very similar, but you can see the folding leaf sight on the Zouave, and a simple "Kentucky" sight on the Mississippi:

View attachment 161359

The Zouave has washers for the side nails, while the Mississippi has a sideplate:

View attachment 161361

The forward barrel bands are also different, and the Zouave has a bayonet lug on the side of the barrel which the Mississippi lacks:

View attachment 161362

I also weighed them. The Zouave was 9 pounds, 1 ounce, while the Mississippi was four ounces heavier. I would attribute this to the smaller caliber (.54 versus .58), but also the larger patchbox lid (which is quite thick on both rifles) and the larger forward barrel band on the Mississippi. Both have approximately 33" barrels.

I did what I felt I could in the time that I had. The subject rifle is now on its way home. I spoke with the owner on the phone, and we had a good conversation. He said he bought it a few months ago in a local gun store as a consignment sale, and he paid $325 for it. I would say he got a pretty good deal. I hope he enjoys his rifle, shoots it safely, and cleans it properly.

If you are still with me, thanks for reading. I get a lot of enjoyment puttering around with old guns, and thought I might share some of the joy.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
Love these guns. I recently inspected an Original excellent (unissued of course) Zouave and the workmanship and materials are so much better than the Repros, as you might expect.
 
It is in excellent condition for an original. Do you shoot it?
Thanks for all the kind responses!

@hanshi , who made your Mississippi rifle? It looks like a really nice one.

The Mississippi pictured in post #1 shows its age but is all original, as far as I can tell. It even has the original, spare nipple screwed in its place in the patchbox. The markings on the lockplate are very faint, but I can make out US in front of the hammer and New Haven 1850 on the tail of the lockplate. I've had it for a little while, but haven't shot it yet. My brother brought over a bore scope recently and we took a good look. It has some small, scattered areas of deep pitting, but the rifling looks good, and I believe it's safe to shoot with sensible loads. I hope to get it out to the range soon.

@Flint62Smoothie , thanks for the tip on the Armi Jager Zouave for sale. I've seen a few reproductions by other makers that were pretty rough, but I was very favorably impressed with the overall quality of the Armi Jager rifle described in the first post.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob



I ordered mine from "Jarnigans" (?) and it was marked Euroarms. Best thing was the price was just a little over half what DGW sold them for. Plus .54 cal. Can't beat that! I haven't seen them listed on their website since then.
 
Bob,

Hope you don't mind me pointing out you are using the BEST kind of ball puller on the market. ALL of the original good ones were made with a tapered screw thread like yours and I snagged the pic to show below. These actually keep stuck balls on the screw much, MUCH better than the ones that look like a modern machine screw where the body of the screw is the same diameter. (BTW, I've seen folks use the modern machine screw type drill a hole in a ball and not be able to pull the stuck ball out.)

High quality original ball pullers had a rounded shoulder behind the screw to center the screw on the stuck ball and protect the barrel walls from the steel screw. They go back to at least the 17th century.

The brass/bronze collars on original ball pullers were extremely rare, but not unknown quite early as well.

Having pulled many, MANY stuck Minie and PRB's over the years, I most highly recommend this kind of ball puller and collar. At only $3.50 to $4.50 for one of the best ones available, they are a great choice for every caliber one has.



1662841843922.png


https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/574/1
Gus
 
Love these guns. I recently inspected an Original excellent (unissued of course) Zouave and the workmanship and materials are so much better than the Repros, as you might expect.

Oh my heavens, YES, the quality of the original locks on both rifles were miles ahead of most repros, though the VERY early Zoli Zouaves came close.

As to the repros, IF the two rifles were made by the same manufacturer, the lock parts are interchangeable.

I repaired and did trigger jobs on so many of both repro rifles at NSSA shoots, I got to the point I could tell which internal lock parts might work on other manufacturer's locks and which wouldn't.

Gus
 
Remington used their old tooling for the model 1841 to produce thier 1862 contract rifle. The lock and barrel profile are almost the same. The stock and furniture was patterned from the Model 1855 Rifle. The result was a blend of both rifles.

Thanks for sharing that. Your comments explain a lot about the Zouave rifle's design.

My original 1841, .58 cal.

That's a nice rifle! I understand that when the War Between the States got well under way, both sides needed arms. The M1841 was issued as a .54 caliber, to fire a patched .525" round ball. The newer Springfields were .58 caliber with progressive rifling for Minie bullets. Logistically, it made more sense to have all the guns shooting the same ammunition. By that time, a lot of the Mississippi rifles were in civilian hands, but the US Government had at least some of them, that were still in government possession, bored out to .58 caliber and re-rifled to handle the standard Minie bullets. The arsenal modification also included replacing the sights. I was thinking they also added a bayonet lug, but I don't see this on your rifle, and the front sight appears too tall to allow mounting a socket bayonet. So, it looks as if your rifle is one of these arsenal-modified ones. These have their own historical significance, and you have a real prize.

It is in excellent condition for an original. Do you shoot it?
I ordered mine from "Jarnigans" (?) and it was marked Euroarms. Best thing was the price was just a little over half what DGW sold them for. Plus .54 cal. Can't beat that! I haven't seen them listed on their website since then.

Thanks for the comments! My original Mississippi has had a few knocks, and stampings on the barrel and lock are pretty faint, but it is still solid and everything works. I wanted to check out the bore, but that's done now, and I believe it is safe for shooting. I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet, but I will soon.

Bob,

Hope you don't mind me pointing out you are using the BEST kind of ball puller on the market. ALL of the original good ones were made with a tapered screw thread like yours and I snagged the pic to show below. These actually keep stuck balls on the screw much, MUCH better than the ones that look like a modern machine screw where the body of the screw is the same diameter. (BTW, I've seen folks use the modern machine screw type drill a hole in a ball and not be able to pull the stuck ball out.)

High quality original ball pullers had a rounded shoulder behind the screw to center the screw on the stuck ball and protect the barrel walls from the steel screw. They go back to at least the 17th century.

The brass/bronze collars on original ball pullers were extremely rare, but not unknown quite early as well.

Having pulled many, MANY stuck Minie and PRB's over the years, I most highly recommend this kind of ball puller and collar. At only $3.50 to $4.50 for one of the best ones available, they are a great choice for every caliber one has.



View attachment 161691

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/574/1
Gus

Thanks, Gus! That is a serious ball puller, and it is the one from Track. The sharp point, tapered body, and super-sharp threads allow it to get a real bite on a pure lead bullet. This ball puller will also grab a lost patch if one comes off a jag "down yonder." These don't cost much, and they have potential for saving a shooter a lot of grief. A good item to keep in one's shot pouch.

I believe Dave Crissali, of The Lucky Bag, makes a device with a short drill bit mounted in a centering collar, to screw into the end of a rod. It is used to bore a pilot hole in a ball to be pulled. This makes it easier to get a ball puller screwed into the projectile, and also reduces the amount a ball will bulge. However, I think he only sells these as part of a set of ramrod attachments, so it may not be available as an individual unit. It sounds like a good idea. However, the ball puller from Track works pretty well as it is. It sure did the job for me.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
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