I got a screw loose!

[stikshooter]

My local Ace hardware has gun specific screws in the bins of specialty fasteners. Take the frame with you, maybe you can match it up. Beware, it could be metric, don't force it

And carry discreetly till you chat your intentions!/Ed

 

[Ed C.]

My 2 cents....clean everything up good. Get a set of feeler gauges. Remove the cylinder. Swing the frame out to the side, slide the arbor in and rotate the lug faces towards each other. If the faces overlap you have a short arbor and that distance plus about .002" is a ball park dimension for the thickness of the washer you will need. Insert the washer. Assemble the gun. Give the wedge a few good taps. Put the hammer at half cock so that the hand is not pushing on the cylinder. Push the cylinder all the way back and measure the endshake (the gap between the cylinder and barrel) using feeler gauges. .002"- .004" would be good. Adjust washer thickness accordingly.. Each time you disassemble/ assemble the gun the endshake should be the same now, not dependent on how hard you seat the wedge.

 

[45D]

My 2 cents....clean everything up good. Get a set of feeler gauges. Remove the cylinder. Swing the frame out to the side, slide the arbor in and rotate the lug faces towards each other. If the faces overlap you have a short arbor and that distance plus about .002" is a ball park dimension for the thickness of the washer you will need. Insert the washer. Assemble the gun. Give the wedge a few good taps. Put the hammer at half cock so that the hand is not pushing on the cylinder. Push the cylinder all the way back and measure the endshake (the gap between the cylinder and barrel) using feeler gauges. .002"- .004" would be good. Adjust washer thickness accordingly.. Each time you disassemble/ assemble the gun the endshake should be the same now, not dependent on how hard you seat the wedge.

Ed C,
I like your thinking because I think you pretty much grasp the idea . . . but, if you think about what you laid out, you're adding .002" to the measurement of the over lap. That would mean there would be .002" space at the frame /barrel lug. The "overlap" ( theoretically) would put the lug/ frame just in contact . . . that would leave a rather large amount of endshake. The main thing here is you want FULL contact at the lug/ frame. That is THE starting point and is "ground zero" in the setup. You definitely don't want any vibration at that juncture.

So honestly, it's so much easier to go from too much spacer to "perfect endshake" without measuring anything. I've never tried to setup by measurement other than endshake. Mainly because it will be different on every other revolver.
That's also a main reason that the "swing the barrel down" test is bs. It won't work . . . you have to add to the material loss just to be able to preform the test so, why do that? A spacer will tell you all you need to know.
Obtaining the .0025" - .003" ( or whatever your number is) endshake is as precise as the end result will ever need to be including the process to get there.
Hope this makes sense.
Keep it up sir!!

Mike

 

[Wheelman]

Went back to the barn and found a round machine disk that fit nicely about as thick as the other washers I had. Tested it in both Piettas and I ended up with gaps both at the bottom pins and the cylinder. Didn't measure anything but they were at least as wide as the washer itself so if I have short arbors, they ain't short by much. After removing the disk, I cut a piece of cloth in a circle that was around .012 inches thick and placed it flat in the arbor hole. This proved to be a bit much and I could not seat the wedge into the slot by delivering a couple of normal blows. So I undid everything and called it good.

Feeling spunky, cleaned up the arbor on the Gen 3 and found an arbor that I could unscrew. I turned it around 3 times and then realized maybe not the best idea so stopped and cleaned up the threads with some Ballistol and screwed it back in and tightened it up as much as I could and it aligned fine for the wedge. So I did put the same disk down the Gen 3 and it looked pretty much like the Piettas with respect to the gap at the pins, the cylinder face along with the front to back play in the cylinders. Then after putting everything back together, I seated all the wedges on all 3 guns down pretty good and did not notice any binding. I really do think my problem was the coatings on the new guns that was enough when added together, to bind the cylinder. The Gen 3 is a different thread for a different day.

Cheers and be safe!

Wheelman

 

[Ed C.]

Ed C,
I like your thinking because I think you pretty much grasp the idea . . . but, if you think about what you laid out, you're adding .002" to the measurement of the over lap. That would mean there would be .002" space at the frame /barrel lug. The "overlap" ( theoretically) would put the lug/ frame just in contact . . . that would leave a rather large amount of endshake. The main thing here is you want FULL contact at the lug/ frame. That is THE starting point and is "ground zero" in the setup. You definitely don't want any vibration at that juncture.

So honestly, it's so much easier to go from too much spacer to "perfect endshake" without measuring anything. I've never tried to setup by measurement other than endshake. Mainly because it will be different on every other revolver.
That's also a main reason that the "swing the barrel down" test is bs. It won't work . . . you have to add to the material loss just to be able to preform the test so, why do that? A spacer will tell you all you need to know.
Obtaining the .0025" - .003" ( or whatever your number is) endshake is as precise as the end result will ever need to be including the process to get there.
Hope this makes sense.
Keep it up sir!!

Mike

I see your point. The main reason I suggest the overlap check is that it will pretty much indicate a short arbor. Someone may tap in a wedge, check endshake and it be OK and think the arbor is correct when if they drove the wedge in some more the cylinder may bind due to a short arbor. That check is to get them to drop something in there and then as I said, adjust accordingly. I'd go along with start by using a .080 or .090" washer and see how it goes if a short arbor is suspected.

 

[Wheelman]

Just got parts in mail today from EMF. 2 hammers and a screw.

I obviously have things to do.

Cheers

 

[Boston Bill]

And I am not offended. I bought this gun to try and learn something about these 1851's and not bugger up the 2 colts that we have over here. So far so good.
I am not very mechanically oriented and never have been. I can read and learn. Keeping my old Ford tractors running is about my limit.
When I first started making fishing rods, it was ugly.
After a while, I was taking orders from people.
Once I stopped having fun, I stopped making rods.
If the only thing I learn is to take the colts to a gun smith, then that is fine.

But good advice, I certainly want to be safe no matter what.

If you can fix tractors and make fishing rods you can learn how to work on your revolver. Check out Mike Beliveau otherwise known as duelist1954.You Tube him

 

[M. De Land]

My 2 cents....clean everything up good. Get a set of feeler gauges. Remove the cylinder. Swing the frame out to the side, slide the arbor in and rotate the lug faces towards each other. If the faces overlap you have a short arbor and that distance plus about .002" is a ball park dimension for the thickness of the washer you will need. Insert the washer. Assemble the gun. Give the wedge a few good taps. Put the hammer at half cock so that the hand is not pushing on the cylinder. Push the cylinder all the way back and measure the endshake (the gap between the cylinder and barrel) using feeler gauges. .002"- .004" would be good. Adjust washer thickness accordingly.. Each time you disassemble/ assemble the gun the endshake should be the same now, not dependent on how hard you seat the wedge.

That works for small reductions in barrel cylinder gap but when you have to close up over .020 as I have recently you need to shorten the lug and make a new wedge unless you have an adjustment screw in the end of the arbor (which I don't recommend) to make up for the lack of wedge width, to keep the gap level around the clock. When you draw up the wedge and leave the lug the same height the barrel can only be levered upward by the lug which causes the gap to be tighter at the top and make the gun shoot higher and pressure the arbor threads upward.
The typical feeler gauge properly used can tell you not only where the tight spot is but the differences in the gap around the clock top to bottom and side to side.
The idea is to tighten the gap and make it as square to the barrel breech as possible just like when barreling/re-barreling a solid frame revolver.

 

[Wheelman]

Sweet success!

Looks like a new hammer fixed the problem.
I guess I can go back to working on fitting my grip.
I tried to get a good shot of the failed cam.

Thanks for all the support.

Wheelman

 

[45D]

Sweet success!

Looks like a new hammer fixed the problem.

Wheelman

Don't be surprised if it happens again!! The real problem is the left bolt arm "whittling" the cam. The arm is way too thick and way too short (working length) to be as flexible as it should be. The arm is sliding off the side of the cam instead of falling off the front. You may get some extra life by slightly bending the arm to the outside ( so that it's against the hammer) and lightening the bolt spring ( loosen the screw an 1/8th of a turn or so.

The extra money for the Uberti gets you "premium" action parts. Of course, they all have their problems and can be fixed.

This is what's wrong with folks telling you to " just shoot it" and it'll smooth right up!! Doesn't always work like that.

Mike

 

[Ed C.]

Don't be surprised if it happens again!! The real problem is the left bolt arm "whittling" the cam. The arm is way too thick and way too short (working length) to be as flexible as it should be. The arm is sliding off the side of the cam instead of falling off the front. You may get some extra life by slightly bending the arm to the outside ( so that it's against the hammer) and lightening the bolt spring ( loosen the screw an 1/8th of a turn or so.

The extra money for the Uberti gets you "premium" action parts. Of course, they all have their problems and can be fixed.

This is what's wrong with folks telling you to " just shoot it" and it'll smooth right up!! Doesn't always work like that.

Mike

Exactly what I did to my gun to rectify that situation after replacing the hammer. On subsequent inspections after shooting it looks fine. Now it is packed with grease and unless the problem comes up again it will probably be a year or so before I go in there again to clean and check it.

 

[Ed C.]

That works for small reductions in barrel cylinder gap but when you have to close up over .020 as I have recently you need to shorten the lug and make a new wedge unless you have an adjustment screw in the end of the arbor (which I don't recommend) to make up for the lack of wedge width, to keep the gap level around the clock. When you draw up the wedge and leave the lug the same height the barrel can only be levered upward by the lug which causes the gap to be tighter at the top and make the gun shoot higher and pressure the arbor threads upward.
The typical feeler gauge properly used can tell you not only where the tight spot is but the differences in the gap around the clock top to bottom and side to side.
The idea is to tighten the gap and make it as square to the barrel breech as possible just like when barreling/re-barreling a solid frame revolver.

In most cases we are working with little to no endshake due to a short arbor and trying to open the gap. A long arbor is a whole different ball game which it seems like you are referring to if I am understanding your comment correctly. But in dealing with a tighter gap on the bottom of the barrel than the top I have evened it up by adding a shim to the lug face on one of my guns. Maybe not a conventional fix but it seems to be working and the gun is accurate out to 50 yards which is twice as far as I generally shoot.

 

[M. De Land]

Exactly what I did to my gun to rectify that situation after replacing the hammer. On subsequent inspections after shooting it looks fine. Now it is packed with grease and unless the problem comes up again it will probably be a year or so before I go in there again to clean and check it.

You just happen to get a soft cam (improper heat treat) is all. I've had to make new triggers of tool steel once or twice for the same reason on a couple of my revolvers. If both the bolt finger and cam are equally hard they will not gall one another.
I remember one trigger I gave two treatments with Kasnite hardening powder that usually works fine and it still would not hold a sear edge so I milled out a new one of O-1 tool steel and that kept the edge. A-2 air hardened steel works equally well for such application ( cams. hammers and triggers) but has a more complicated hardening protocol.
Bolt fingers, ratchet star and arbor all need grease not just oil for lubrication .

 

[Ed C.]

You just happen to get a soft cam (improper heat treat) is all. I've had to make new triggers of tool steel once or twice for the same reason on a couple of my revolvers. If both the bolt finger and cam are equally hard they will not gall one another.
I remember one trigger I gave two treatments with Kasnite hardening powder that usually works fine and it still would not hold a sear edge so I milled out a new one of O-1 tool steel and that kept the edge. A-2 air hardened steel works equally well for such application ( cams. hammers and triggers) but has a more complicated hardening protocol.
Bolt fingers, ratchet star and arbor all need grease not just oil for lubrication .

Your level of gunsmithing is several notches above mine. The best I can do is replace, maybe bend, file, polish and adjust a little. I do think widening the split on the bolt tail to engage the cam fully is a good help. I enjoy reading your fixes.

 

[M. De Land]

Your level of gunsmithing is several notches above mine. The best I can do is replace, maybe bend, file, polish and adjust a little. I do think widening the split on the bolt tail to engage the cam fully is a good help. I enjoy reading your fixes.

Thank God I've not yet needed to make a bolt from scratch as that would take some time to get right. My guess is that springing the finger gap wider to get a bit more tension on the cam could very easily result in breaking it off although if done with wedge cam would be the safest bet.
If one wants to reduce the tension then a flat diamond file to thin the finger thickness would be he ticket.
If both the cam and finger are suitably hard and lubed with a good grease they will not gall one another.
The only trouble I can see with to much finger tension on the cam is arresting hammer fall which Mike pointed out earlier.

 

[hawkeye2]

It is possible to break the leg off the bolt while trying to bend it. Commenting for a friend.

 

[45D]

It is possible to break the leg off the bolt while trying to bend it. Commenting for a friend.

Yes! And that happens because of the thickness. Thinning it first before bending . . . I mean "adjusting " would be best. I extend the cut into the body of the bolt, pretty much to the bolt head thereby extending the length of that arm. That decreases the overall stress when it deflects as the cam passes by.
It needs to be strong in the vertical but "Linguini" in the horizontal!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Yes! And that happens because of the thickness. Thinning it first before bending . . . I mean "adjusting " would be best. I extend the cut into the body of the bolt, pretty much to the bolt head thereby extending the length of that arm. That decreases the overall stress when it deflects as the cam passes by.
It needs to be strong in the vertical but "Linguini" in the horizontal!!

Mike

Good points and sound thinking!

 

[Ed C.]

It is possible to break the leg off the bolt while trying to bend it. Commenting for a friend.

Yes! I also have a "friend" that did that.

 

[Ed C.]

It is possible to break the leg off the bolt while trying to bend it. Commenting for a friend.

Delete. My computer has gone crazy duplicating this reply.