Burst Barrel

[Razor62]

Interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18

 

[Heelerau]

Dan,
a most interesting post.
We had a chap blow the last couple of inches off the muzzle of his PH Navy rifle at the last Nationals here in Perth Western Australia, apparently he just palmed the minnie into the muzzle, got distracted talking and there it went. I wonder what steel was used in those barrels? I did not see the incident so don't actually know what the damage was.

cheers

Heelerau

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You all should be aware..., that no matter what you are told by a barrel manufacturer, it is their word what steel they use, unless you get it tested to be sure, so you are trusting them, and all they have is the track record for their product to support your trust.

BEFORE somebody chimes in with drek such as, "Well if they lie then they will get sued"..., the Douglas Barrel Company case taught many of the other barrel makers a lesson. Often barrel companies are set up so they only own the barrels in various stages of completion. The milling machines are "leased" on paper as they are the personal property of the the barrel company owner. A barrel goes up, and the barrel company gets sued..., great..., so the plaintif gets maybe 100 barrels in varios stages of completion for that's all the assets owned by the company, and the company folds. The next day a new company is formed, with a similar name, that leases the machines from a private person, and business continues.

AND..., before somebody mentions liability insurance..., you'd be surprised to find out how many have no such thing. Why would you, for it makes you the primary target in a lawsuit even if it was clearly shooter error, and you can avoid all of that by handing over your current stock, and starting business as a new company. John Q. Doe barrels today can be restarted as J. Doe barrels tomorrow, and J. Quincy Doe Barrels the next day, and J. Q. Doe Barrels the day after that and so on and so on..

LD

 

[azmntman]

saw that a few months ago, very enlightening. Mine did not get short started, just may have slipped an inch or two off powder (if at all?) gotta check and see. TY, a good one for all to watch!

 

[Okie Hog]

Thank you, Dan.

In the 60s and 70s i was heavily into muzzleloader shooting. Attended dozens of shooting matches ever year i was stationed in the US. Most of the muzzleloaders used were originals dating from the mid 1800s to about 1930.

Saw numerous barrels that were bulged from failure to properly seat the ball on the powder. Never heard of a barrel bursting from failure to properly seat the ball.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bpcompress/bpcompress.html

Some folks are so afraid of bulging or bursting a barrel that they refuse to dislodge a dry ball by using using a few grains of black powder under the nipple.

 

[54ball]

A few years ago, I traded a .32 cal rifle for a .62 cal smooth-bore. Looked to be styled as a "Tulle" but had an English lock. I sold it to a friend of mine last fall. It appeared to be a well made gun and I did some good shooting with it. My friend did well with it, having the lock and touch-hole reworked which made it even better. Last Friday, as he was shooting it in his back yard in preparation for our gun clubs monthly shoot, the barrel burst. The burst split the barrel from about an inch in front of the touch hole all the way to the muzzle with the split running roughly along the top and bottom. It peeled the sides of the barrel around like a banana peel. My friend was stunned but unhurt. It was not an "India" made gun or barrel and we are at a lose as to what may have caused the rupture. I know there is a way to post pics on this forum but I haven't been able to figure it out yet. When I do, I will post some pics of this tragedy.

Only the OP can provide any information on the gun in question since he used to own it. Without knowing key facts like what type of barrel was on the gun, IE DOM tubing homemade or factory made, this thread is a rudderless ship.

As far as load data and what actually happened, we may never know the truth. But again I would like to know more about the gun itself.

Honestly, I'm comfortable with factory barrels. I'm more concerned with these homemade DOM tubing guns since I own one.Bought a low price gun,I know better now.

This thread needs more basic info.

Heck, if is "top secret" PM me, I'll keep quiet.

 

[Ed Hamberg]

A booklet titled "DESTRUCTIVE TESTING OF MUZZLELOADING RIFLE BARRELS" was written by Jerry Cunningham in 1982. Jerry was, at that time, a barrel maker at Montana Rifle Barrel Company. He was assisted in his efforts by Dave Baird, John Baird, Ed Webber, and Lynn Weimer. The Barrels were donated by the Company and were made out of either 12L14 or 1214 bismuth. The only way Jerry could get any barrels to fail (rupture) is to place several balls off of a huge powder charge. Here are a few examples of the tests he performed:

BARREL SPECS....Octagon .50 X 7/8 barrel X 35", 12L14 bismuth 1-72 twist .490 ball .015 pillow tick patch lubed with saliva, ball seated firmly on FF powder. Barrel wall thickness .175....
TEST....1,600 grains of powder, 16 balls, seated on powder, fired with a perc cap...
RESULTS... Bulge .023 per side 32 inches from the breech and nipple expelled from breech

BARREL SPECS...Octagon .45 X 13/16 X 42". 12L14. 1-72 twist, .440 ball, .015 ticking, saliva, FFF powder. Barrel wall .173....
TEST...500 grns. powder, 5 balls, 4 inched OFF the powder.
RESULTS...Burst into four pieces 14 inches from the breech, Balls still inside.

There were a total of 28 tests performed and I was amazed as to what it actually took to "blow up" a 12L14 barrel. Any one who is interested in the durability of 12L14 barrels needs to find a copy of this booklet....

 

[cynthialee]

Sabotage hasn't been put forth as a potential reason so I'll float it.

Is he getting along with the wife? Piss anyone off lately?

 

[Rifleman1776]

The only way Jerry could get any barrels to fail (rupture) is to place several balls off of a huge powder charge.

Can you say that again and much louder?
I didn't hear you the first time. :shocked2: :thumbsup:

 

[russecv58]

in one of the pictures, I see a short discolored section of the split, maybe 6-8 inches rearward from the muzzle. looks to me like a crack that started from a previously short started ball? it looks nice and dark compared to the rest of the split, i.e. powder residue from pressure leakage? :2

 

[lee marrin]

Dan states that 12L14 and 1140M steels dangerously "work harden" after a lot of use, so perhaps the 12L14 barrels tested by Jerry Cunningham MIGHT have failed under less pressure, if they had been fired many times before.

Dan: "A brittle steel is considerably weakened when subjected to shock. Powder igniting is a shock loading and a pressure loading. Since leaded screw stock and its bretheren have poor "hoop strength" they do not tolerate internal pressure well so its not a good for "pressure vessels". This is why the steel company will tell people not to use it for gun barrels.
While the 1140M used in all those Remington shotgun barrels, until they got sued anyway, was plenty strong for the application, good quality etc etc. But it WORK HARDENS and becomes BRITTLE when flexed and shotgun barrels, having thin walls FLEX every shot. Eventually when they reached the point where they were hard enough to not flex the barrels BROKE. "

 

[okawbow]

If I remember my classes I took while Technical coordinator at a steel pipe factory; our steel pipe, which contained lead to promote free machining, had a fatigue life in the millions of cycles with a 50% stress load.

It would take a lot of shooting to fatigue a muzzleloader barrel.

 

[nhmoose]

Green Mountain uses 1137 but from everything I've heard they will not make swamped barrels anymore.

Easy they did not sell enough meaning very big numbers to the corp. Branch does not own them anymore.

 

[kaintuck]

Sabotage hasn't been put forth as a potential reason so I'll float it.

Is he getting along with the wife? Piss anyone off lately?

Maybe I need to watch tomtom closer.....there are days that he has a Katz sense of humor :youcrazy:
:hmm: :rotf:

 

[nit wit]

In defense of the guys using DOM tubing. They have put a bunch into the field.With those numbers I would think we would have seen more examples of burst barrels if they are so weak. :idunno:
I guess we will have to wait and see. I have shot the old crappy Belgian sb's that had thinner barrels(ignorance is bliss), I would be more nervous with them. I guess I would not be shooting 90 gr charges in them.This is the first one I have heard of and we have a lot of members and they get around.
Nit Wit

 

[frogwalking]

I got into this discussion late, but that will not stop me from making several observations. Look at the photos of the demolished gun again. Look at the machine marks on the octagon portion of the barrel. Also note how thin it is by looking at the edge of the visible break. Now look at the wedding band at the octagon to round transition. Note that their appears to be a significant step down in barrel size from octagon to round. That makes the round portion pretty thin. Does the fact that this barrel was browned and placed into this gun with no surface finishing have anything to tell us about the possible quality of this piece? That is all I have to add to this.

 

[excess650]

I got into this discussion late, but that will not stop me from making several observations. Look at the photos of the demolished gun again. Look at the machine marks on the octagon portion of the barrel. Also note how thin it is by looking at the edge of the visible break. Now look at the wedding band at the octagon to round transition. Note that their appears to be a significant step down in barrel size from octagon to round. That makes the round portion pretty thin. Does the fact that this barrel was browned and placed into this gun with no surface finishing have anything to tell us about the possible quality of this piece? That is all I have to add to this.

My impression is that the problem with this barrel began on the inside, and not on the outside. Milling marks just means he didn't draw file and sand it prior to browning. The wedding band transition from oct-rd is commonly done, and not deep. By the time the payload made it to the wedding band, the pressure inside the barrel should have already been decreasing. If the wedding band cut (radius) was the problem, the barrel would have seperated(broken off) at that point.I'm more inclined to think that this barrel had 2 or more lengthwise grooves inside that were the "corners" that failed.

 

[jamesthomas]

I wish the O.P. would come back on and maybe give us a bit more information on what the charge was and if it was a round ball or shot charge in the barrel and maybe the barrel specs? and who made it. Also they have the barrel and can inspect it better than us with just a few pictures. Btw, those Bushy Creek guys looked liked they have a good time and I would have liked to been at that (gun show?) Roundy? they have pictures of.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I wish the O.P. would come back on and maybe give us a bit more information on what the charge was and if it was a round ball or shot charge in the barrel and maybe the barrel specs?

Agree. I now suspect the failure was really not a fault of the barrel but in charge and/or loading procedures. The person who may be at fault might be to embarrased to come forward.

 

[Razor62]

[/quote] "Agree. I now suspect the failure was really not a fault of the barrel but in charge and/or loading procedures. The person who may be at fault might be to embarrased to come forward."[/quote]

I was beginning to wonder the same thing. :idunno: