Embers left in the barrel after a shot?

[GreenCheek44]

Hey! Experienced in firearms, new to traditional muzzleloaders. I took my new Gf (who’s never shot a gun) to the range and we shot my Kentucky rife a bunch. I’d actually never shot it before but was pretending I was a pro when showing her how to load and fire a few times before letting her go. After two shots I was feeling confident. But as I was pouring the charge down the barrel for the 3rd shot I hear “wait don’t you think it’s still hot down there and it’s going to shoot the powder right back up at your hand?”
I froze. “Uhhh no I don’t think so” as I ran a piece of cloth through the barrel nervously. Sooo can this happen? Is there ways to avoid it if so? We are going with her dad in a week and I’m not trying to get called out.

 

[tenngun]

Yes it can happen. So you always pour from a container like your horn or flask in to a measure and put the container out of the way before you pour the powder down the barrel.
Then you never put your body or head over the barrel when pushing the ball down. If it were to go off you only want your hand injured.
I’m 63 started shooting ml in in the 1970s. And 99%+ of my shooting is ml. I have not hunted with a modern gun since 1976.
I have never had one go off or seen it.
When it happens it is most likely, but still rare, with people shooting military style paper cartridges.
Another cause is hot dry days and shooting a dirty gun.
A swab between shots prevents it. It only adds a few seconds to reloading.
A blast of air down the bore limits the chances. You can get a small flexible plastic tube and blow on one end while holding the other in the bore. Blowing directly down the bore is against the rules at many ranges and in many events, though that’s what old timers did.
Military shooters can get four or more shots a minute. Shooting a civilian rifle it’s rare to load quicker then a minute. Take your time you should not have a problem. Just to be on the safe side risk your hand only.
Even with out swabbing if you just take your time it’s hard to load a civilian arm fast enough to be a danger.

 

[Greg Blackburn]

I've never had it happen to me but one thing I do at the range is swab (wet patch, then two passes with dry patches) between shots. Even then I only pour from a measure and never stand with my face over the muzzle.

 

[mooman76]

It's rare but has happened. Turns a powder flask into a bomb.

 

[dave951]

Theoretically it "could" happen. In over 40 years of reenacting and muzzleloading competition, I've had precisely ONE "cook off" where the charge ignited as I was loading. It happened after I loaned my 1842 Macon smoothbore to someone who "cleaned" it after use. While it's been in my possession, no issues.

At the risk of opening a huge can of worms here, I have a couple ideas on the subject and I will quantify my comments by saying I shoot minies not patch round ball. First off- by removing the cap, you allow a bellows effect with the rammer to "fan" the ember by wiping if there is one to a state where it could ignite more powder. Second, by wiping, you're pushing the stuff in the barrel down to the chamber creating a chance for an ember.

So in thinking this through, the charge that just fired consumed most oxygen in the barrel and there's a bunch of smoke. An ember needs oxygen to ignite. If you immediately put the but on the ground to load, the carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide being heavier than air will sink to the chamber area. By wiping, you eliminate this effect. Here's why I think this way, in loading a black powder muzzleloading artillery piece, there is an item called a thumbstall. One cannoneer is detailed to put that item on his thumb and keep it firmly on the vent during the entire loading process. So those who would argue with my first comments, what's the difference between your 45/50 cal percussion Kentucky/Hawken and a cannon other than size?

In our competition with Civil War arms, we load on the line with minies. We leave the caps on from the previous shot. We don't wipe between shots. In over 50 years of the North South Skirmish Association's existence, the very, very few accidents that have occurred were due to poor maintenance of the gun on the part of the owner. YMMV with a patch round ball gun, but to be fair, that's a different level of muzzleloading technology.

 

[dave951]

Like others have said, NEVER EVER EVER load from a flask.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Ive never had it happen and Ive been shooting muzzleloaders for closecto thirty years. I do not blow doen the barrel either.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

I have had one "cook-off" in forty years of shooting muzzleloaders. I shot N-SSA for twelve years, with a Parker Hale 2-band Enfield. My standard target load was 35 grs. 3F under a 315 grain wadcutter mini. One shoot I was "farmed out" to a team that needed a shooter. While my team rarely shot more than four or five shots in an event, this hot, dry summer day my adoptive team went "full time," shooting the full five minutes. (Still didn't get 'em all.) On my thirteenth reload, I dumped the powder from my round down a too-hot-to-touch barrel and it went off. Burned my fingers and palm, which were over the barrel to dump the load. Not a serious injury, but painful. I still have a couple of spots from the event. I've never seen a cook-off with a patched round ball gun, but then again I do the "one wet, one dry" swab routine with my flintlocks.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Rudyard]

Only once as a shooter next to me was loading a 451. I'me afraid I'me an old timer shooter whether rapid with a Bess or strolling round a farm never had accident but not saying cant happen . Known a flask go off for a shooter in a straw bail hide (blind). And a spectacular priming flask go off . But he was priming after a dinner break, squibs the pan off still holding the flask same hand .Result' BOOM' .He emitted a loud OOH! OOH!. Then retaining his composure said "Dose anyone want to buy a black westcoat?". It was canary yellow before the incident, Didn't affect his sense of humour but it broke his finger and made a right duck of his sun glasses . What I have frequently seen is shooters priming their lock or percussion revolver loading flask then putting it down just by their gun. useualy its a common top affair not the double shutter flash proof I use .No one seems to worry any but if you see shooting in the dark the sparks are every where visible . On that note the very best Flask maker in modern times Mick Marsh of Eyam . Made ' Best' flash proof flasks he tested them using a hot nail and they where, But he would'nt call them 'flash proof ' as nothings fool proof .
Rudyard

 

[JeffG]

A swab between shots prevents it. It only adds a few seconds to reloading.

Always.

 

[tenngun]

Theoretically it "could" happen. In over 40 years of reenacting and muzzleloading competition, I've had precisely ONE "cook off" where the charge ignited as I was loading. It happened after I loaned my 1842 Macon smoothbore to someone who "cleaned" it after use. While it's been in my possession, no issues.

At the risk of opening a huge can of worms here, I have a couple ideas on the subject and I will quantify my comments by saying I shoot minies not patch round ball. First off- by removing the cap, you allow a bellows effect with the rammer to "fan" the ember by wiping if there is one to a state where it could ignite more powder. Second, by wiping, you're pushing the stuff in the barrel down to the chamber creating a chance for an ember.

So in thinking this through, the charge that just fired consumed most oxygen in the barrel and there's a bunch of smoke. An ember needs oxygen to ignite. If you immediately put the but on the ground to load, the carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide being heavier than air will sink to the chamber area. By wiping, you eliminate this effect. Here's why I think this way, in loading a black powder muzzleloading artillery piece, there is an item called a thumbstall. One cannoneer is detailed to put that item on his thumb and keep it firmly on the vent during the entire loading process. So those who would argue with my first comments, what's the difference between your 45/50 cal percussion Kentucky/Hawken and a cannon other than size?

In our competition with Civil War arms, we load on the line with minies. We leave the caps on from the previous shot. We don't wipe between shots. In over 50 years of the North South Skirmish Association's existence, the very, very few accidents that have occurred were due to poor maintenance of the gun on the part of the owner. YMMV with a patch round ball gun, but to be fair, that's a different level of muzzleloading technology.

The cap over the nipple may well function as you suggest. Although I would suggest a difference between a shoulder arm and a cannon was the cloth bag used to hold the charge.
A paper cartridge was torn on the bottom. In smooth bore times the paper was made in to a wad and was on top powder. While a cloth bag was around the powder.
The use of foil may change that today. Cannon was often swabed with water ‘tween shots. I wonder if the thumb stall man really protected any thing. Most don’t plug their touch holes when loading a flintlock.
Should you make char cloth you get an ember on it you blow on it to make heat. However the spark will lay and lightly glow. If you cut out just the spark and blow on it it goes out as it exhaust its fuel.
Running a damp swab would put anything out, a wad of air blows out through the touch hole or vent.
I don’t want to get in to a blow down the barrel tween shots here. ( it’s well known that both sides are well entrenched on that one).
It would be interesting if there was a way to test it other then ‘this has always worked for me’, but I don’t know how we would pull it off.

 

[dave951]

Running a damp swab would put anything out, a wad of air blows out through the touch hole or vent.
I don’t want to get in to a blow down the barrel tween shots here. ( it’s well known that both sides are well entrenched on that one).
It would be interesting if there was a way to test it other then ‘this has always worked for me’, but I don’t know how we would pull it off.

Maybe, but a case could also be made that the damp wipe is just shoving stuff into the breech area. In N-SSA shooting with minies, we don't wipe between shots but we are using what was arguably the pinnacle of military muzzleloading projectile development prior to using a form of self contained cartridges. The minie was designed to eliminate the wiping step and deliver more power further downrange and when loaded correctly and in balance with the lube, it can run and run and run. I've personally seen over 60 shots straight with no fall off in accuracy. That said, the minie can be rather finicky compared to a traditional prb. Get that balance off and a minie can be very frustrating.

 

[hanshi]

Controversial, but I blow down the bore prior to loading. Another thing is I do not reload at anything close to fast.

 

[ord sgt]

I have had some burning embers light off the powder charge once. Rapid fire practice, load and fire while on the timer. It is most curious to see flames going between your fingers while loading a premeasured powder charge. Never did find the tube that held that powder.
Seen the same thing happen to another shooter while he was on the firing line, in the middle of the timed event. He continued to load and fire. It was not easy to handle the rammer with burns on his right hand but he was able to manage.

 

[tenngun]

I’ve never loaded cartridges for a minnie, looking at people doing it I’ve seen several that pour powder, then snap the paper from the minnie and run it home. The result is no paper in the barrel. Is this how you do it?

 

[GreenCheek44]

Controversial, but I blow down the bore prior to loading. Another thing is I do not reload at anything close to fast.

yes, I read the pinned conversation about. Is there any historical evidence of this being done?

 

[GreenCheek44]

I have had some burning embers light off the powder charge once. Rapid fire practice, load and fire while on the timer. It is most curious to see flames going between your fingers while loading a premeasured powder charge. Never did find the tube that held that powder.
Seen the same thing happen to another shooter while he was on the firing line, in the middle of the timed event. He continued to load and fire. It was not easy to handle the rammer with burns on his right hand but he was able to manage.

Is this mentioned at all in historical drill manuals? Or was it just something they lived with.

 

[ord sgt]

Never saw any reference to powder charges being ignited prematurely. I loaded a premeasured powder charge into a plastic tube and placed the minie on top with the grooves exposed. The grooves were then dipped into my lube mixture and placed into a tray., ready for the range.

 

[dave951]

I’ve never loaded cartridges for a minnie, looking at people doing it I’ve seen several that pour powder, then snap the paper from the minnie and run it home. The result is no paper in the barrel. Is this how you do it?

A loaded N-SSA round is basically a plastic tube that uses a minie as a stopper. The premeasured powder charge is put into the tube. The tube is closed with a minie partially inserted nose first, then the exposed skirt is dip lubed and there you are. Authentically it was done with paper and string.

To fire an N-SSA round, pull the minie, pour the powder into the muzzle, insert and ram the minie, cap, aim fire, repeat very very quickly cuz the clock's running and fastest time wins and every other unit on the line is doing the same thing. The N-SSA Musket Nationals is as close as you're going to get to a battle line engaging in live fire these days. The main firing line at our home range Fort Shenandoah will accommodate 73 teams consisting of 8 men each. Each position has a target array of 32 clays on a backer. Fastest time wins, unbroken clays count against your score. Sometimes the weather can really bring home the concept of the "fog of war" when the smoke doesn't clear out and you can't see sights or targets clearly. The following pic is from our 2016 Fall Nationals. Time was 8:30a.

 

[tenngun]

I bet it’s fun to watch them new fangled guns give it ago