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Trying to figure this whole thing out

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Just bought a real nice 12 gauge smooth bore side by side caplock. The guy said he always shot the plastic shot cups in it. I tried and got terribly inconsistent patterns. Did away with the plastic shot cups and instantly got better results. My question is, I only have the thin over powder and over shot cardboard patches. What is the added advantage of the thicker cushion wad that most folks load on top of the over the powder patch? Thanks,
 
According to my guns, a lubed cushion wad is useful with repeated shooting as I don't need to swab the bore as often.

That is about the only benefit that I find with them.

Many here, myself included, have guns that tend to shoot "donut hole" patterns when using cushion wads.

It seems each gun is a different animal. Patterning your gun with lots of differing component configurations, shot and powder charges will tell you what you need to know.

Besides the knowledge gained, it's a blast (excuse the pun)!

Have fun, Skychief.
 
Could be no advantage at all. I shoot a home made fiber wad. I used crushed paper, tow, or wool. I've made them out of dog hair and wasp nest. Some folks use over powder wads an nothing else. Some shoot 1/2 commercial fiber wad, some full thickness. You can put your shot in a paper tube or pour it down loose. You just have to play with it, and see what works bess for you and your shooting.
 
Thicker cushion wads and various cushion wads are used in shotshells to adjust the load height to fill the case depending on the load.
The first shotshells were brass and loaded with black powder.
Modern plastic wads have different length cushions to accommodate the size of the shot load.

Regardless of the material cushioning is believed to reduce shot deformation and improve pattern density.

I bought a bag of 500 thick cushion wads 25 years ago and still have some left.

My personal opinion is that they were never designed for muzzleloaders ......maybe someone can document that.
 
Oak Walker, the late V.M. Starr, who I understand invented 'Jug Choking' used only hard card wads, two on top of the powder and one on top of the shot. I have owned two side by side 12 guages ( Navy Arms and Pedersoli) and one Traditions single twelve guage and I always used a cushion wad and a thicker hard card wad over powder and one thinner card wad over shot and did well with each gun. Tried Starr's formula with beautiful results in the Traditions fowler. Also fired a patched .69 cal round ball from the fowler with oil can accuracy at 40 yards. I hope this helps, George.
 
Whatever works for each individual and their gun. Only way to know for sure is to try.

I could not get the 1/2" long lubed fibre over-powder wads to work for me. While better, using 1/2 of one or putting two halves down did a bit better (less donut hole effect) but still not what I wanted.

For me, two lubed thin oxyoke felt over-powder wads is what did it.

I have to start getting ready for turkey this year and do want to try a hard card over shot per what I have read in Skychief's other posts. I generally use two thin overshot cards and have good results...but perhaps it can get better. :hmm:
 
We might argue about whether a round ball obturates but there can be no doubt that a shot column does. The shot will rearrange itself in to a compact lump that perfectly fits the bore. That is why a card is as good as a wad when it comes to getting a seal, the shot column holds the shape of whatever is pushing against it. A wad might get some lube in and cannot have nicks in it but IMHO that's about the only advantage.

I believe the trick is to get nearly all the acceleration over and done with before it reaches the muzzle and leaves the confines of the bore.

If you put too much powder in a small bore you might blow the pattern at the muzzle without a shot cup to keep it together.

The old boys figured out the perfect combination of bore and barrel length for BP back in the 19th century.

The only way to figure out the doughnut would be to have one of those fancy stop action movies taken of a BP gun actually shooting a doughnut. I know my guns are shooting doughnuts when I miss an easy shot, it is the only possible explanation :idunno:
 
I always try out lubed fiber wads with a new gun because I like their benefits in my uses. Lots less fouling issue when taking lots of shots- I never have to swab, even on days involving 40 or 50 shots. They're also lots easier to handle than cards with cold fingers or gloves. Those thin "over shot" cards lots of guys like to use between shot and powder are a royal PITA when the fingers aren't working so well.

Starting from the position of someone liking them and working on load development, I have always been able to find loads that work. A good rule of thumb is that if you're getting donuts, you're using too much powder for a particular shot charge. When using 10 grains less of powder (by volume, not weight) than shot, I always manage to get good patterns. I can use equal volumes with 1f powder rather than 2f, so I lean that way most days now simply because I can use the same measure for both.

I'm convinced the deadly "donut" is due to gas escaping around the fiber wad and up into the shot column, rather than the wad blowing up through the shot at the muzzle. If a fiber wad was prone to blowing through the shot, then it would be even more likely with lighter cards.

One thing I've found universal between my shot loads: I put a 1/8" thick "Type A" hard card beneath the fiber wad. It does a good job of scraping fouling when you seat it down the bore, plus it always seems to improve a pattern. Haven't tried it yet as an "over shot" card, but fully intend to do so. I'll be happy if it doesn't improve patterns at all, so long as it doesn't make them worse. I'm just looking for a card that's easier to handle than thin cards with uncooperative fingers.

Bottom line, do lots of load testing to see what your gun likes best. "Best" for me is a nice even pattern with no ragged fringe and no clumping or "dense core" in the middle of the pattern. A turkey hunter might want that dense core, but I'm a wing shooter and not a turkey poker.
 
Thanks for the information fellas. I think I have it figured out to at least be able to kill an old ridge runnin gobbler out to 20 yrds and I guess you can't ask for anything better. I hope to find out in the morning. Seems to be shooting pretty well with 70 grains 2f 2 thin cards over that turn the powder measure up to 90 for measuring #6 shot with a thin card over that. Averaging 8-10 pellets in the brain and spinal column on a printed turkey target. It will be my first turkey hunt with traditional Black Powder so I am pretty excited.
 
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