Some questions for the gun smiths

[cynthialee]

I got to wondering the other day if a thin walled rifled steel tube encased in some of these modern super ceramics would make for a light weight muzzle loader. Or perhaps alternating layers of metal and ceramic”¦

Also can a smooth bore rifle like a brown bess be cut down then flared out at the top of the barrel some,and the stock cut a bit lower than the barrel to make a blunder buss looking weapon?

One more:
Can a modern barrel be converted to a front loader if you make a proper breach plug for it, tap it for a percusion lock and design a stock for the thing?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Cynthia: Answers to your 3 questions.

1. Yes, you could use a light steel "liner" wrapped in carbon fiber, or ceramic to make a ML barrel, but the cost would be prohibitive.

2. Yes, you could do all that to a Brown Bess, but why would you destroy a $1,000+ firearm to make a gun available for half that cost new or in kit form?

3. Yes, modern barrels can be fitted with breech plugs to make MLs. However, most modern barrels have very shallow rifling, with a very fast ROT, and do not make very good RB rifle barrels. You see some of these used for pistol barrels, and, of course, they may just be the ticket if you shoot paper patched conical bullets. A 1:22" ROT barrel, and even a 1:18" barrel in .458 caliber makes a fine barrel for shooting PP bullets. Its been done.

:hatsoff:

 

[54ball]

The Carolina Type G trade gun of the 18th century had barrel lengths of 46 inches or more and most weighed less than 5 pounds. :shocked2: Also some golden age " 1780-1830" longrifles can be quite light. So, honestly there is no need to re-invent the wheel with ceramics or other space age materials, but it does not hurt to think. :thumbsup:
Another fact is too light a gun or rifle can be punishing to shoot and hard to hold on target.

Most English Blunderbusses of the 18th century favor the Brown Bess's architecture. As said you could modify a Bess but it would be a near crime to do that to an original or even a "good" repro. Why not just find a Blunderbuss to begin with?
Most Blunderbusses had muzzles resembling cannons. This tapered down to normal bore size in just a few inches. The cannon type flare is believed to aid in loading on a pitching ship deck or bumpy coach. A short musket of the same length would pattern about the same as a blunderbuss. The Pilgrim flare or Hollywood funnel for the most part is a modern day cartoon version of a blunderbuss.

A modern rifle barrel would be a poor candidate for a muzzleloader but not so with shotguns. Many flint doubles have been made by using old shot shell barrels.

 

[cynthialee]

thank you

 

[BrownBear]

Closest I've seen Cynthia, was about 20 years ago when a smith I know got a wild hair. He decided to rebuild an oldish singleshot 22 rimfire to a muzzleloader just to see if he could do it, and see how it might perform. He made it work, and it was a hoot to shoot with very small charges. Heck, a percussion cap was enough by itself to make you think you could probably pop rabbits with it.

On reflection he characterized the results something like "$3,000 worth of labor and machine time to make a $50 beater into a $100 beater."

 

[cynthialee]

Closest I've seen Cynthia, was about 20 years ago when a smith I know got a wild hair. He decided to rebuild an oldish singleshot 22 rimfire to a muzzleloader just to see if he could do it, and see how it might perform. He made it work, and it was a hoot to shoot with very small charges. Heck, a percussion cap was enough by itself to make you think you could probably pop rabbits with it.

On reflection he characterized the results something like "$3,000 worth of labor and machine time to make a $50 beater into a $100 beater."

Sounds like a project my grandpa would have done. Just for, no real reason.

 

[cynthialee]

Reason I asked the ceramic barrel ? is because I was sitting here thinking to much and I got to wondering how things would be in fire arm technology if we had never discovered smokeless powder and the cartridge had never been thought of. What kinda black powder weapons would we have with todays modern tech if we were still ussing BP exclusively is what I have been pondering allot.
The supper light weight composite material barrel was my first thought.
But I hadn't considered the weight of the fire arms we use taking up some of the energy that would be recoil. duh....
All I was thinking about was how much a hassle it is to carry a heavy rifle through the brush and wilds.

 

[BrownBear]

But I hadn't considered the weight of the fire arms we use taking up some of the energy that would be recoil. duh....

:rotf:

I'll sign onto that, in spades!

Years ago I bought one of the unmentionable modern versions, a 54 cal that weighs only 6#. Kinda fun in an academic sense. Got interested in heavy bullets and big charges.... Holy cow.

Then I wanted to see what it would do for long range shooting so I put on a scope with a fairly long eye relief....

Had the sense to shoot it from a standing benchrest, based on my stable of cartridge guns ranging up to a 378 Weatherby and a 460 Weatherby.

Fired it the first time and scoped myself- standing fully upright and prepared for heavy recoil.

Figured I hadn't held it right, so shifted around and fired it again.

Scoped myself again.

Figured I just wasn't doing something right, so shifted around and shot it again.

Scoped myself again, real good.

Pulled the scope off and five years ago loaned the rifle to a buddy who likes big guns and big recoil. He's busy and hasn't got around to shooting it yet, and I haven't asked to have it back. Status quo is fine with me! :grin:

I may be a slow learner, but eventually I learn.

 

[izzyjoe]

ha, that's how to get rid of someone, loan them money or a gun! :haha:

 

[Herb]

The Sportsman's Guide Shooter's catalog came to me in the mail today, I don't know why. But there is a blunderbuss in it. "Legendary 18th Century .54 caliber Blunderbuss kit. 16 1/4" polished steel, flared trumpet-like .54 cal. barrel. Percussion cap ignition." $296.97. www.sportsmansguide.com or 1-800-888-3006.

 

[junkman_01]

Herb,

I'm sure you know that the percussion cap did not exist in the 18th century. Some 'authentic' replica, eh? Looks like a POS to me. :td:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_cap

 

[user 922]

I'll bet they buy those barrels from the same companies that make blast horns for trucks. What a waste of money.

 

[cynthialee]

I think it looks neat enough but to call it a genuine replica...? Replica of what? Something some guy made in their shop a couple years ago? :haha:

I have neither the money at this time or the skills to put it togather.

I'd shoot it just to shoot it.

When I get that blunderbuss I have been dreaming of, it will have a bronze barrel and a flintlock.(ok I would go for percusion if it had a mule ear, because I love the look of the side slappers)

 

[Zonie]

I know you were trying to be helpful but I will pass on that blunderbus.

It has the looks of the ones painted on the walls of the Sunday School class I sit in as a kid.

For a long time I thought the Pilgrims carried guns like that only later to find that the guns they carried not only did not look like that but the real blunderbusses didn't either.

Anyway, thanks for the thought.

 

[Deadeye]

Herb, I browned one of those "sportsman warehouse"
so called blunderbusses for an old guy (even older than me) a few weeks ago. The barrel was a rifled piece of .54 barrel about 14" long with a flaired piece 2 or 3"sweated or press fitted on the end. Could only be shot with a single projectile and no sights and the flare prevented the shooter from seeing where he was shooting. I doubt he'll ever shoot it, just be a wall hanger which is all that its good for and not very good for that.
Deadeye

 

[Herb]

Info on blunderbusses- Book, "The Blunderbuss 1500-1900" by James D. Forman, Historical Arms Series No. 32, Museum Restoration Service, Alexandria Bay, N.Y. and Bloomield, ONT. In case you are serious about this. My friend has this book.

 

[cynthialee]

thank you
Building them is way out of my league. But I do like to read allot, and reading up on this topic gets my interest up.

 

[FL-Flinter]

Ceramics are used as coatings or liners not reinforcement. I read about a test done with segments of zirconia tube joined to make the correct length for a .50BMG then wrapped in carbon fiber utilizing a proprietary overwrapping method and resin. The purpose of the ceramic is to reduce wear and increase the rate of fire but AFAIK none have proven themselves worth the extremely costly investment.

Another process is where a bore can be impregnated with powdered ceramic or cubic boron nitride, it's not cheap and there isn't much bragging going on about them either.

As for a "light-weight" barrel, one style uses a barrel steel liner with the minimum acceptable wall thickness for the chambering. In this case the "wrap" is used to reinforce the barrel so it's more durable and to reduce the amount of whip it has on firing. The other style used a very thin liner that cannot withstand the pressure of firing a round without the wrap being intact, usually the first indication there's a problem is when it blows up in your face. Either one of the "wrapped" styles is going set you back $900+ and the exterior profile is going to be many times larger than that of a standard barrel (typically around 0.900" OD on a 30cal bore).

Something else to think about is that these "wraps" are secured with resin that is susceptible to delamination, separation from the base material and solvent degradation.
Mark

 

[davec2]

Cynthialee,

I understand your desire to have and shoot a blunderbuss. I made this one about 10 years ago and wrote this old post about it:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/260131/post/1030117/hl//fromsearch/1/

Dave C

 

[cynthialee]

Dave, that gun is beautiful. But I have to ask...Why bother with the sight notch on the bell? Can it hit anything beyond 20 or so yards?

You could certainly clear the deck in a hurry with a gun like that one.

Do you still take it out to shoot on occasion?