• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Rooster down at dawn.

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Liberal bull. If its so bad why do the fields produce more yields than ever before...
Foolish man, N-P-K... Nitrogen is a natural compound and your breathing it, Potash is mined from the earth, sounds pretty natural
Again, Use your common sense, you sound like farmers are trying to destroy their farms so they have nothing to leave their grandchildren and trying to poison them as well.
You my friend are wound to tight and brainwashed by Mother Earth magazine and its ilk.
I am also pretty sure your not friends with any farmers!

For thousands of years farmers did not require the mined bat & bird guano, the other mineral amendments, nor the petrochemical fertilizers/poisons that the post-WWII Green Revolution absolutely needs in order for that model of farming to exist.

Petrochemicals, which are a short-term, unsustainable resource/fix/substitute for a healthy, living soil , cannot grow healthy crops.

A healthy crop, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as any commodity crop grown in a monoculture with tillage, that has the ability to withstand the pests/diseases that ordinarily affect that particular crop.

Because the carbon levels, and the soil life, in any cropland being farmed with chemicals, & tillage, long-term are terribly low-to-nonexistent, the plants being grown on such soil's are stressed. In any given year, such plants are going to be stressed to one degree, or another. Those stresses make such plants extremely inviting to insects, and extremely susceptible to diseases. And, less able to compete with any "weeds" that grow along side of them.

If the Green Revolution method of farming, which you are championing, and which you accuse me of being starry eyed critical of, is so damn good, then answer me this question.

If modern, post-WWII, industrial farming utilizing tremendous amounts of tillage, is superior to any form of farming that came before it.......

"Then why is it necessary to require chemical poisons of many types in order for modern industrial farming to grow the yields that everyone claims are needed to feed the world?"

In any sane world, no right-thinking human being is going to apply to the soil/plants, expose themselves to, and ultimately ingest dozens of different poisons in order to eat, and sustain human life.

PERIOD. End of story.

One does not need to themselves be an industrial farmer in order to see the wrongness of the model.

I have seen the same problems that occur with industrial chemical farming with tillage, happen at the backyard level of gardening.

In the same way that a good model of doing something can be scaled up, or down, to fit the needs of the person/persons concerned; the problems with a bad model are going to scale up, or down, as the needs of the person/persons concerned utilize it.

Which means that if I am market gardening in order to feed myself/my family on, let us say a 2-5 acre plot, by utilizing lots of tillage/soil disturbance, and planting a monoculture of corn, tomatoes, beans, potatoes, cabbage, winter squash, etc.; then my plants will be stressed, and be susceptible to diseases & insects.

The only way that the current high yields for commodity crops are being maintained, is by the ever increasing amounts of fertilizers, and poisons, that must be applied in order for those yields to remain steady.

What you, other chemical farmers, the chemical companies, and the land grant state university agricultural programs fail to take in account when you are being so highly critical of small-to-medium scale farming with a diverse selection of both plants, and animals, in conjunction with minimal-to zero tillage, and a high degree of required labor; is that farmers like Joel Salatin have been able to get rid of the stunningly high bank loans that virtually all chemical farmers have to take out/borrow/pay interest on in order to pay for the yearly requirements of seeds, fertilizers, poisons, and equipment.

While their labor costs might be far more than the average large acreage chemical farmer, they simply don't need the multi-million dollar investment in machinery, and infrastructure that the chemical farmer does.

Which means that on a per acre basis, farmers like Salatin realize far more profit per acre than do their neighbors farming the industrial way. And, they do so without the incredible fears of a single bad year wiping out generations of hard work. Because Joel Salatin is so diversified, all 4 generations living on Polyface Farms know that if a particular part of their farm fails in any given year, then the myriad of other income streams on the farm will allow them as a family to survive.

Which, when looked at objectively, without the rose colored glasses, and all of the propaganda that the chemical companies spend billions of dollars in advertising & lobbying costs trying to convince (and thus far being very successful at) the average American that industrial chemical farming is the only way to feed a burgeoning planet.

Which is a complete lie. It is a known fact that 50% of all the food grown on the planet fails to ever make it into a human mouth. Or, into the mouths of the domesticated animals that we raise for pets, and companionship. Or, into the mouths of the animals that we raise to feed ourselves. Or, gets composted do that the nutrients removed from the soil, can be returned to it.

Mother Nature abhors a vacuum, and also hates to see any piece of ground barren of plant life. That's why there are no monocultures in natural ecosystems. Only human beings think that in their so-called wisdom/hubris, that they can contravene what GOD has established in the natural world.

We have paid, an are still paying, a very high price for the over-abundance of food that we produce by forcing human food plants to grow in an environment where only a select few nutrients are provided, mostly N-P-K, of the vast variety of chemicals, and minerals which exist in a healthy, balanced soil.

And, to answer your question, I have been friends with several farmers that continue to farm the way that you advocate. I just can see the deficiencies in the industrial chemical farming model. Where their livelihoods are in constant jeopardy, on a yearly basis, from a single years, or successive years, bad luck. They are only one hailstorm, freezing rain, early killing frost, late killing frost, flooding rains, blizzard, tornado, high windstorm, or drought away from foreclosure by whatever financial institution that holds their loans.

In my opinion, that's a incredibly stressful way to have to try and earn a living. And, any adult with the ability to look at the current industrial farming model objectively can see that at some point in the future the petrochemicals stored in the earth from millions of years ago are eventually going to be depleted.

Then what? Without a sustainable alternative to our current industrial farming model, there will be no way to feed the world's population as it continues to grow exponentially. Said growth that has only been possible due to using the stored sunlight that we know as coal, natural gas, oil shale, and petroleum. Which we use as a source of food, medicines, building materials, and energy to create electricity, fuel the various modes of transportation, and make our lives more palatable/comfortable/easier than those lives were before the Age of Industrialization.

I have gotten a very long way off of Britsmoothy's OP vis-a-vis his successful pheasant hunt. My apologies to Britsmoothy. I just hate to see people sugarcoat how we, as a nation, and yes, as a world, grow our food, and raise our livestock, in the industrial manner.
 
Last edited:
You may influence forum members in the States with your un truths about the English way of shooting sports and running them down Has I have said lets see your threads in the many UK forums it would be interesting with the answers. Has for hiding under a veil feltwad is the non de plume which is known world wide for his shooting and gun knowledge
Feltwad
Feltwad, I have been removed from British forums for expressing my views that clearly rub people up much like yourself the wrong way. The fact you and them get so upset is because I touch a nerve or even irritate a seered conscience. Every October the first I strive to get a pheasant to cook and every October the first you pop up to take a swipe at it or me or what ever.

You will have to help me with world wide acknowledgement. May be a link or two. But please, nothing as miserable as your example here. That is ofcourse that there is indeed no veil.

I'm afraid that at the moment I am only on one British forum.
Here is a link. No veil Feltwad.
https://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/profile/109727-sausagedog/
 
Last edited:
I too would enjoy a day in the field with Brit, bet it would be a good time, He## I would not mind a invite too a driven phesant shoot, but afraid those boys would turn there noses up at my old springfield 12, (carhart bibs and wore out cabelas wool hat, although I do have a rather nice kilt )its been getting the job done for many years though. Go get em Brit who really gives a hoot how ya do it, I enjoy you jaunts. I also do not stop hunting at tea time.
 
Talking of land management and farming I can honestly say I loathe how things have gone.
After school I would go and help on a farm. Done the old way. The dairy cows were mucked out by hand. Wheelbarrow and shovel. The muck was solid, not slurry. It was spread on the clover pastures. The cattle ate clover hay through winter.
On the farm was lapwing, grey partridge, larks, pipets, pheasants and hares. It was paradise to me.
On another farm I shot on the cattle, another dairy herd were equally beautiful. Solid muck. Fed on rich clover and first rate hay.
Unfortunately the father died and the son took over.
Almost overnight the fields were ploughed and fast grown lays sown and laced with nitrogen. Sprayed for weeds often.
The cows muck turned to slurry and got pumped all over the once beautiful pastures.
The birds left that place, the rabbits disappeared but what struck me the most was the soil!
First the soil erosion after heavy rain and how it set like concrete in dry conditions! I always remembered it being light, airy and fluffy even! It was dead!
I've not been back there for 20yrs!
Modern farming, don't like it sorry.
It's money. The root of all evil.
 
I too would enjoy a day in the field with Brit, bet it would be a good time, He## I would not mind a invite too a driven phesant shoot, but afraid those boys would turn there noses up at my old springfield 12, (carhart bibs and wore out cabelas wool hat, although I do have a rather nice kilt )its been getting the job done for many years though. Go get em Brit who really gives a hoot how ya do it, I enjoy you jaunts. I also do not stop hunting at tea time.
I'll load for you and be grinning from ear to ear with you 👍
 
Game in the UK belongs to the land owner and unless it’s changed recently there are no public lands in the UK open to the general populace for hunting. Would seem at least one of the adversaries in this thread is a land owner perhaps the other isn’t. At any rate there are two opposing views on hunting.
As an average working Joe living and working in several states in my 80 years I could and did purchase a license in all of them and have access to many many thousands of acres of public lands. Not only that in many cases it was possible to get permission to hunt private lands simply by asking.
Could that be said of Great Britain. ??
 
Game in the UK belongs to the land owner and unless it’s changed recently there are no public lands in the UK open to the general populace for hunting. Would seem at least one of the adversaries in this thread is a land owner perhaps the other isn’t. At any rate there are two opposing views on hunting.
As an average working Joe living and working in several states in my 80 years I could and did purchase a license in all of them and have access to many many thousands of acres of public lands. Not only that in many cases it was possible to get permission to hunt private lands simply by asking.
Could that be said of Great Britain. ??
Yes and no, if I turned to hunt on any what they call common land I would be soon arrested.
However I can obtain free permission to enter private land to hunt.
Most of the places I go it is more of a cooperative. I help them and I get freedom of their property.
Helping them may range from farm work, welding or just plain old crop protection when needed.
 
We used to have beautiful cock birds like this running through the back yard years ago and I loved to hunt them with pop and uncle and smell the pipe along with the HoppiseNo.9, but sadly there are hardly no birds left because of poison and urbin sprawl.
 
More Hawks than ever before. More coyotes spreading throughout the farmland. More pheasants in the Dakotas than ever, Eagle populations up and their spreading up and down the mississippi flyways, I wonder what the predators are all eating...damn them farmers and their poisons
 
Maybe there are just too many people?
If we can't feed the population with what the land can produce on its own merits,,,, there are too many mouths to feed.

And it doesn't help that our diet has gone to.......
And I don't mean preservatives and junk in our food. Humans were not designed to eat the amount of grain that is being pushed on us. Whether it is corn or wheat, doesn't matter, the grain heavy diet being literally shoved down our throats is not optimal for humans.
Then again, it also isn't good for cattle either.
 
Right on. Damn the people feeding the nation.
Come on guys you can’t feed the nation on organic foods. That’s for the 1% of the population that can afford it.

How is it that organic farming, and I
really detest that term, fed all of mankind for thousands of years? How is it that what I choose to call natural farming, instead of organic farming, was the only way that humans farmed for more than 9,000 years?

Bad farming practices, which reach back into the mists of time as long as agriculture has existed as a human endeavor, are why civilizations have risen, and then fallen. Never to be heard from again.

Agriculture in general is both disruptive, and destructive, to the earth. That being said, there have been multiple civilizations throughout history that developed, and were able to utilize for centuries, sustainable forms of agriculture.

The Aztecs in what we now call Mexico City, the Mayans in parts of Central America, the Incas in the mountains of South America, the Egyptians in the Nile River basin, various cultures in Asia, various cultures in the Pacific Islands, various cultures in the Middle East, and others too numerous to mention in this post; all had various sustainable methodologies vis-a-vis agriculture that were uniquely suited to their particular climate.

What all of those civilization's forms of agriculture had in common was that they were extremely labor intensive.

Any
form of agriculture that is today labor intensive is frowned upon, made fun of, labeled as impractical, called crazy, stupid, & in many cases here in the United States; a person such as Joel Salatin, and the other prominent practitioners of the no-till, mob grazing forms of agriculture, have been, and will continue to be, called terrorists.

The chemical companies are so invested in their way of farming that they see any deviation away from their methodology to be an immediate threat that must be squashed by any means possible.

That is why when standards were put into law in the recent past to define Organic foods, so customers could be assured that what they were purchasing in the grocery store was indeed an organic piece of produce, the laws were written in such a manner as to be meaningless. These laws favor an industrial form of organic farming that bears no resemblance to true organic farming/natural farming.

The standards of organic farming, as adopted by pioneers such as Robert Rodale, are so dumbed down from the original intent that they might as well not have been written, and passed into law.

As far as feeding the nation, nay I say, the entire world, utilizing so-called organic/natural agriculture has sustainably fed countries as large as China. Prior to the adoption of Green Revolution farming practices, China, Japan, Korea, and many other Asian countries were able to feed their populations sustainably.

Most of the reasons why people in a country like China went hungry, or starved to death, prior to the Green Revolution, had nothing to do with farming practices, and everything to do with politics. And, greed in the hands of the ruling class.

Of course, the so-called civilized nations in Europe looked down their noses at those countries because they utilized human waste as a fertilizer. No matter that percentage wise, few citizens of those countries got sick and died from such practices. No matter that most of the deaths in those pre-Green Revolution farming cultures, could be attributed to reasons other than getting sick from any pathogens contained in human waste. The fields stank, and that was offensive to the Europeans. So, as European countries took political control of those Asian nations, they did everything they could to stamp out those farming practices that they considered objectionable.

Now, none of those countries are any longer capable of 100% feeding themselves. Gotta hand it to modern industrial chemical farming.
 
Last edited:
My last comments on the matter and I will try to be succinct as others obfuscate.

Modern American farmers and livestock producers produce vast quantities of safe and relatively inexpensive food for all of America and a large part of the world that is as close as your local restaurant, fast food outlet or grocery store.

And some like to complain about it while their mouths are full.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top