Poor boy rifle

[Rndball]

Howdy all, been shooting ML since the early 90's, my first one was a T/C renegade from a kit. I'm now wanting a Poor boy rifle and just can't seem to find what i'm looking for?? I'm looking for a 45 cal, swamped barrel, 42-44" roundball twist and as far as the stock goes I want two thimbles, trigger guard and small lock plate. All iron and browned. Anyone have any pics of something like this??. Did these come in walnut stock or maple?? any info apprectiated

 

[Ames]

I think the stumbling block may be the swamped barrel. They were poor boy rifles because the people were poor. If you cant afford a butt plate , no way you can afford a swamped barrel or the work involved inletting one.
Not saying it wasn't done, just goes against the general idea of poor.

 

[Rndball]

I think the stumbling block may be the swamped barrel. They were poor boy rifles because the people were poor. If you cant afford a butt plate , no way you can afford a swamped barrel or the work involved inletting one.

okay.. thats the knowledge I'm looking for. thank you for the info.

 

[Ames]

Now, you can still get what you are after..............but you might have to roll up your shirtsleeves and learn to inlet a swamped barrel yourself.

 

[tenngun]

I think poor boys are more popular today then in the day. Maple was prized back then so a tiger stipe may be out of place on a true poor boy. Beech was common. I THINK walnut was not as prized on guns then as now. Mostly seen on military. Cherry seems rare on surviving guns however I think many guns many poorer grade guns were lost during the mental drives of the world wars.
I am thinking about a po’r boy myself and leaning toward lowest grain maple, but don’t think that’s the only correct and walnut is calling my name too.

 

[Rndball]

Than

I think poor boys are more popular today then in the day. Maple was prized back then so a tiger stipe may be out of place on a true poor boy. Beech was common. I THINK walnut was not as prized on guns then as now. Mostly seen on military. Cherry seems rare on surviving guns however I think many guns many poorer grade guns were lost during the mental drives of the world wars.
I am thinking about a po’r boy myself and leaning toward lowest grain maple, but don’t think that’s the only correct and walnut is calling my name too.

Thank you and please keep me informed of you build

 

[longcruise]

I don't see the unlikely hood of a swamped barrel on a "poor boy" or "schimmel". It seems like swamped barrels were were pretty much the only barrels around until later in the ml era. "Poor boy" is a contemporary term for a type of rifle that may have been more typical than the fully furnished and decorated guns.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Search the web for Adam Angstat signed poorboy. Click images. You will find an example of the poorest poorboy around. From there you can decided if you want a truly poor boy of a rifle, or perhaps get snobbish and go for lower middle class.

I have the makings for a near copy of that rifle. I want it to be a dirt poor boy.

By the way, I have a theory about the much loved swamped barrels. Imagine you are drawfiling a really roughly made new iron barrel, as in the 18th century, as you reached out and began drawing the file initially as your arms were stretched downward pressure on the file wouldn't be real heavy. As you reach the middle of the stroke pressure will increas as you could more easily push down on the file and the file cuts harder. As you near the end of the stroke you let up the pressure and the file cuts less. Doing things by eye you'd likely produce a swamped barrel. So, a poorboy rifle might have a swamped barrel just by accident.

 

[tworoosters]

Sounds like what you really want is a premium rifle dressed like a poor boy, ha! Swamped barrels sound nicer and nicer every time I lift my old Dixie mountain rifle.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Have you considered a Kibler Southern Mountain Rifle kit?

 

[Notchy Bob]

rndball,

Welcome to the Muzzleloading forum!

It has been my privilege to handle a few originals. Not a lot, but several. Of these, some had hand-hammered barrels. All were percussion. All of the hand forged barrels I have seen were swamped except one. This one was tapered, and considerably shorter than the others, and the rifle showed evidence of having been shortened. I believe the barrel had originally been swamped, but was cut off at the waist (the narrowest part of a swamped barrel), resulting in a taper.

The thing to consider is whether you want a "poor boy" to save yourself some money, or if you just like the style. A swamped barrel would be perfectly acceptable on a plain rifle if you can afford it, and it will improve the balance and "agility" of your rifle. I think very early rifles would have very likely had swamped barrels. Later rifles could have used commercially produced parallel-sided barrel blanks, although I understand these were often smooth-bored when obtained, and were hand-rifled by the gun builder. I think hand-hammered barrels may have held on longest in the more remote areas, well into the percussion era.

I would also like to say that all of these rifles except that one, which had undoubtedly been cut off, had long barrels, averaging around 42"-44". These short-barreled "SMR's" that we are seeing nowadays are a modern phenomenon, although I suppose one could rationalize and say the shorter barrels represent cut-offs.

Most of us think of "poor boy" rifles as a "southern thing," but I believe they may have been more universal, and we know very simple rifles also came out of the Pennsylvania shops. We know these as schimmels. Chuck Dixon wrote a really nice article on them, and Gary Ludwig was kind enough to send me a copy of it. Mr. Dixon suggested that in at least some cases, gunsmiths would build very simple rifles "on spec" and leave them unfinished. A customer could pick one out and specify what degree of finish, furniture, and ornamentation would be added on. The basic components of the unfinished rifles (lock, stock, and barrel) would be the same as on the more expensive guns. The customer might elect to leave the rifle in its most basic form, to save money (and/or time), or specify adding on a butt plate, patchbox, nosecap, decorative inlays and carving, etc.

I did read a fairly lively discussion recently, I think on this forum, regarding brass versus iron mountings, whether forged iron was really cheaper, back in the day, and used to save money, or if it was purely stylistic. I didn't participate in that... I would have had to speculate. I will say that if you want a southern-styled "poor boy," iron might be more appropriate, and I would like to add that not all iron-mounted southern rifles were "poor boys." A Pennsylvania schimmel would more likely have its sparse furniture made of brass. There are also some rifles out there with mixed iron and brass furniture, and a few southern rifles with no buttplate but a heelplate of bone to protect that vulnerable part of the stock.

Regarding wood, I believe a northern schimmel would have most likely been stocked in maple. Of the half-dozen or so southern rifles I have actually handled, stock woods ran about 50/50 black walnut versus "white" wood, definitely curly maple in two cases (both Tennessee rifles) but possibly beech or applewood on a real, classic "poor boy" from the backwoods of Kentucky.

So, if you want a "poor boy" because you like the style, I think that's great! I don't currently own one, but I love 'em. If I were building one or having one built, I would decide on a regional style and use best-quality components (lock, barrel, and triggers) to ensure having a reliable, accurate rifle that will be fun to shoot. I would use a full-length barrel of 42" to 44" and might very well order it swamped. If I wanted a curly maple stock with a little figure, I would not hesitate to use it.

You may want to browse through the posts on the ALR forum to see some pictures of originals.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Rndball]

rndball,

Welcome to the Muzzleloading forum!

It has been my privilege to handle a few originals. Not a lot, but several. Of these, some had hand-hammered barrels. All were percussion. All of the hand forged barrels I have seen were swamped except one. This one was tapered, and considerably shorter than the others, and the rifle showed evidence of having been shortened. I believe the barrel had originally been swamped, but was cut off at the waist (the narrowest part of a swamped barrel), resulting in a taper.

The thing to consider is whether you want a "poor boy" to save yourself some money, or if you just like the style. A swamped barrel would be perfectly acceptable on a plain rifle if you can afford it, and it will improve the balance and "agility" of your rifle. I think very early rifles would have very likely had swamped barrels. Later rifles could have used commercially produced parallel-sided barrel blanks, although I understand these were often smooth-bored when obtained, and were hand-rifled by the gun builder. I think hand-hammered barrels may have held on longest in the more remote areas, well into the percussion era.

I would also like to say that all of these rifles except that one, which had undoubtedly been cut off, had long barrels, averaging around 42"-44". These short-barreled "SMR's" that we are seeing nowadays are a modern phenomenon, although I suppose one could rationalize and say the shorter barrels represent cut-offs.

Most of us think of "poor boy" rifles as a "southern thing," but I believe they may have been more universal, and we know very simple rifles also came out of the Pennsylvania shops. We know these as schimmels. Chuck Dixon wrote a really nice article on them, and Gary Ludwig was kind enough to send me a copy of it. Mr. Dixon suggested that in at least some cases, gunsmiths would build very simple rifles "on spec" and leave them unfinished. A customer could pick one out and specify what degree of finish, furniture, and ornamentation would be added on. The basic components of the unfinished rifles (lock, stock, and barrel) would be the same as on the more expensive guns. The customer might elect to leave the rifle in its most basic form, to save money (and/or time), or specify adding on a butt plate, patchbox, nosecap, decorative inlays and carving, etc.

I did read a fairly lively discussion recently, I think on this forum, regarding brass versus iron mountings, whether forged iron was really cheaper, back in the day, and used to save money, or if it was purely stylistic. I didn't participate in that... I would have had to speculate. I will say that if you want a southern-styled "poor boy," iron might be more appropriate, and I would like to add that not all iron-mounted southern rifles were "poor boys." A Pennsylvania schimmel would more likely have its sparse furniture made of brass. There are also some rifles out there with mixed iron and brass furniture, and a few southern rifles with no buttplate but a heelplate of bone to protect that vulnerable part of the stock.

Regarding wood, I believe a northern schimmel would have most likely been stocked in maple. Of the half-dozen or so southern rifles I have actually handled, stock woods ran about 50/50 black walnut versus "white" wood, definitely curly maple in two cases (both Tennessee rifles) but possibly beech or applewood on a real, classic "poor boy" from the backwoods of Kentucky.

So, if you want a "poor boy" because you like the style, I think that's great! I don't currently own one, but I love 'em. If I were building one or having one built, I would decide on a regional style and use best-quality components (lock, barrel, and triggers) to ensure having a reliable, accurate rifle that will be fun to shoot. I would use a full-length barrel of 42" to 44" and might very well order it swamped. If I wanted a curly maple stock with a little figure, I would not hesitate to use it.

You may want to browse through the posts on the ALR forum to see some pictures of originals.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Thank you for all the info. I really like the poor boy style and that’s what I want to replicate with today’s components.
I want the poorest poor boy look

 

[Pete G]

I would question a swamped barrel on a half stock. What are you planning for the rib

 

[Scoper05]

Howdy all, been shooting ML since the early 90's, my first one was a T/C renegade from a kit. I'm now wanting a Poor boy rifle and just can't seem to find what i'm looking for?? I'm looking for a 45 cal, swamped barrel, 42-44" roundball twist and as far as the stock goes I want two thimbles, trigger guard and small lock plate. All iron and browned. Anyone have any pics of something like this??. Did these come in walnut stock or maple?? any info apprectiated

I would go with the Kibler kit Southern Mountain rifle. Pretty much everything you want in a kit you get to put together yourself. Can't go wrong with it.

 

[EC121]

A barn gun could be made from any combination of repurposed parts. A poor farmer would have used anything available to save money.
This one was made from a swamped barrel. The barrel is 38", but historical accuracy isn't a concern for me. I just need a reasonable representation. It is light and easy to hunt with. 99% of the people don't know one of these from a Lyman or T/C anyway.

 

[longcruise]

A barn gun could be made from any combination of repurposed parts. A poor farmer would have used anything available to save money.
This one was made from a swamped barrel. The barrel is 38", but historical accuracy isn't a concern for me. I just need a reasonable representation. It is light and easy to hunt with. 99% of the people don't know one of these from a Lyman or T/C anyway.
View attachment 55240

I'm always surprised at references to "poor" farmers in colonial and post colonial America. Whether a cash or barter economy, those farmers were uniquely positioned to afford to fill their needs given that they produced the survival essentials for themselves and their neighbors. Not likely that a farmer pieced their own gun together. More likely traded for a gun that he perceived to meet the need.

Just my opinion on it.

 

[EC121]

The farmers/settlers on the far frontier and in the mountains away from the towns were trying to feed their families in as thrifty a way as possible. In the more civilized areas the gentleman farmers and planters were in a position to show their wealth. The subsistence farmer/settlers probably traded for or had built a rifle that would do the job as economically as possible. A smith with some parts or broken guns laying in the corner could do the job. How common they were we won't know. I do know it makes a nice light handling rifle that I don't mind dinging up.
Mr. Ivey's Carolina rifle book has several Deep River rifles with no buttplate and barely a triggerguard pictured. Some even have a simulated wooden patchbox scribed on the butt end. I doubt these went to the Tidewater planters. They more likely went to the hill-folk from the Piedmont west.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I would question a swamped barrel on a half stock. What are you planning for the rib

Both of the rifles with hand hammered (and swamped) barrels that I mentioned in my previous post had been "half-stocked." Under ribs were not used.

It was customary, among the old-time riflemakers, to only draw file and finish the top five flats of an octagonal barrel for a full-stocked rifle. The hammer marks from the forge were left "as-is" on the bottom three flats, because they would be hidden by the rifle's forend. Old full-stocks which were later "half-stocked," for whatever reason, frequently just left the barrel that way. Tenons for the pins were knocked out, and a narrow strip of heavy sheet iron was bent into the shape of the Greek letter "omega," and turned upside down. The "legs" of the omega were filed to a bevel and put in the dovetail on the bottom flat of the barrel to form a tube for the ramrod. The ones I have seen used only one of these ramrod pipes under the barrel. Un-filled dovetails were hammered flat. So, this was sort of a crude repair or modification, yet the two rifles I handled that had this done also had poured nosecaps on the end of the half-stock's forend. This obviously left the ramrod unsupported for much of its length, but that apparently didn't matter much.

This half-stock modification may have been easier than repairing a split or broken forend on a full-stocked rifle, but I believe half-stocks became sort of a "fad" in the mid-19th century. James Josiah Webb, the old-time Santa Fe trader, had his famous rifle, "Old Blackfoot," half stocked several years after he acquired it. This would have been in the late 1840's. plmeek has mentioned Hawken rifles in some of his posts which had probably been built as fullstocks but were later altered.

So, in the obviously modified rifles I have seen, as well as at least one which was certainly an original halfstock, the under rib was simply omitted. Many years ago, I also saw a half-stocked plains rifle in the museum of the Palace of the Governors, in Santa Fe, that had a wooden under rib. You could tell it was wood because one end had pulled away from the barrel. The rib was attached with pins and tenons, the same as would have been used to pin the for end on a full stock.

Anyway, with all of that said, a rib probably could be fitted to a swamped barrel if a customer demanded it. It wouldn't have been perfectly straight, but that little bit of bend might not be enough to matter.

A barn gun could be made from any combination of repurposed parts. A poor farmer would have used anything available to save money.
This one was made from a swamped barrel. The barrel is 38", but historical accuracy isn't a concern for me. I just need a reasonable representation. It is light and easy to hunt with. 99% of the people don't know one of these from a Lyman or T/C anyway.
View attachment 55240

ec121, you make a valid point... and I like that rifle!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[hdskip]

This was my effort at a "Poor Boy". This is a .45 Cal non Swamped barrel. The stock is wild Cherry. the lock is a left hand "Ashmore Warrented " that was significantly reworked and tuned. It does have a single set trigger. All Iron furniture. Although likely not historically accurate as a poor boy , it has the appearance that I was trying to achieve. This rifle was built in the late 1980s. It is a pleasure to carry in the woods and is fun to shoot at the range.

 

[sdilts]

I would question a swamped barrel on a half stock. What are you planning for the rib

You can use the hollow rib from Muzzleloaders Builders Supply. I've done this many times.