plastic shot cups

[Golfswithwolves]

For those of you who might have tried plastic shot cups in smoothbores I have a question: Has your barrel developed plastic fouling, and if so have you found that card overpowder wads protect the barrel from this fouling? Thanks

 

[BrownBear]

I used them extensively back in the 70's and 80's. Used bare, yeah. Plastic fouling built up but was easily removed with a standard shotgun bore brush. No different really than a modern shotgun.

I learned that putting a lubed fiber wad between the plastic and the powder solved it completely. Due to the "flare" of the wad wings there was no tendency for the fiber wad to blow through the pattern as some experience when used by itself, even when I pushed the velocities up a bit.

Lately I've been experimenting with ticking patches lubed with 7:1 olive oil:beeswax lube rather than the plastic wads. I'm really encouraged by the results. A 3" round patch is good for shot charges up to 1 3/8 oz in a 12 gauge with no shot topping out and touching the bore. I haven't counted teeny holes yet, but visually patterns are tightened at least one choke gradation, and maybe two. I.e., a cylinder bore throws an IC pattern at least, and it's edging toward modified. More shooting to be done, including adjustments to powder charges. At present I'm matching volumes of shot and powder.

 

[Jason Lewis]

i have not, but i am begining to experiment with paper tubing shotcups made from model rocket body tubing and glueing a overshot wad to the base. i then am planning to insert a felt wad into the cup, followed by the shot and a buffer and an overshot rammed home on top. it should be effective and simple with no plastic fouling. i'm just waiting on warmer weather.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You can grease the bore after seating your plastic shot cup down the barrel. The grease prevents the plastic from rubbing against the bore. :hmm: :bow: :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

One more thing worth pointing out.

I've misplaced the reference from the 1970's that I first used for plastic shot cups, and darned if I can remember the author. He was an old time muzzleloading shotgunner, and it could very well have been VM Starr. The search is still on for the article, because it was based on actual shooting and so right on the money.

In any case, he advocated use of WAA12Red wads for lead shot loads because they are a little thicker than the white. But he went one step further. Used whole, they delivered Modified patterns out of cylinder bores. With the petals cut to half length they deliver IC patterns. With the petals cut to 1/4 length they delivered very clean "skeet" patterns. Cutting off the petals completely delivered cleaner patterns than not using them at all, with his hypothesis being they did a better job of sealing the bore and preventing gas leakage into the shot load than any other wad.

Theorists can argue the merits of plastic wads, but my own extensive use verified his results to the letter. I'm experimenting with means of avoiding the plastic, but that doesn't mean I'll sacrifice performance if I can't find something that works as well. If my fumbling around doesn't work I'm back to plastic. In a New York minute.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I used to use the red whinchester wads in my 12 gauge with good results but have long since switched to paper shot cartridges made by rolling three thickness of newspaper around a dowel rod tied off with kite string. I find the newspaper cartridges load much easier in my choked pedroseli than the shot cups.I load powder-two 1/4 felt or leather wads- then shot cartridge. The newsprint tied off eliminates the need for a over shot card.

 

[roundball]

I'm on record that anyone can and should use whatever they decide they want to, other's opinions be darned...and I also make no secret about the fact that I am not / never will be a purist...so this comment has nothing to do with anybody else's choice...only sharing a pecularity that I can't really explain.

Oddly, I personally can't get comfortable using modern plastic wads...other than experimenting with them (the Red AAs) for doves back in the 90's with a .12ga SxS cap gun, I haven't used any since...even when I had a chance to try for some geese a couple years ago, I bought some (expensive) Ecotungsten/Niceshot instead so I could still use a bare bore.

I'll sit right there in a drizzle wearing modern camo Gore-Tex and LaCrosse rubber boots but can't make myself use modern plastic shot cups in my Flintlock smoothbores...go figure.

 

[Moose_Owner]

I had used plastic shot cups for the first couple of years I was shooting my muzzle loader. At that time, I was primarily using Pyrodex for powder. I never noticed any problems with plastic fowling when I was using Pyrodex.

After a couple of years, started using real black powder. The first time which I noticed plastic fowling was with the black powder.

I am not 100% sure that the I was not getting plastic fowling with the Pyrodex and simply did not notice it. However, I am sure that I was getting plastic fowling with real black powder.

I liked the real black powder so much better, I started using paper wads to avoid the problem of plastic fowling.

 

[BrownBear]

I hear what you're saying and agree. That's why I'm messing around so much with easy alternatives. But if I can't get the performance I want (and in fact I am already doing so), I'd be back to plastic in that old New York minute. I don't think I have to, but I won't go so far as saying that others shouldn't. What's in their bores is their business and not mine.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Thanks for the replies; they give good information. I too am not real happy at the idea of using plastic wads in my muzzleloader but will still consider this system if it puts out shot loads that will reliably kill wild pheasants. The pillow ticking shot cups help a bit but don't seem to be quite enough :idunno: . I'll continue test shooting on paper now that hunting season is over though. Jug choking may be in the offing as well, although I understand that this barrel modification is not looked on as an authentic thing by some of us either :nono: . If I can find the right combination to give good shot patterns in the cylinder bores using only non-modern ingredients that would be great!

 

[BrownBear]

There's one place that plastic might help over any others. In my experience they let you push the velocity up without sacrificing the pattern. Loads aren't as fast as today's steel shotshells, but they approach the traditional velocities of lead shotshells. In my long experience with ducks, the extra velocity made a big difference in how much lead I had to allow. I'm wondering if the same might be true for pheasants. If you can't adjust to the longer leads, then there might be a plastic alternative.

 

[roundball]

Jug choking may be in the offing as well, although I understand that this barrel modification is not looked on as an authentic thing by some of us either :nono: .

Unless your entire muzzleloader is authentic I don't know why you're worried about it...are you in this hobby for what "you" want to do...or only for what you get the approval of some other individual or two to allow you to do?

Remember, if your read all the posts, you'll find that the same individual or two turn right around and advocate the use of paper shot cups or other such things for which no official documented evidence exists that they were commonly used, or even used at all, back in the 1700s...so beware the self proclaimed historians who try to put down what you might personally want to do.

The jug choke was invented in the 1800s...I had Caywood Guns jug my .20ga Flintlock smoothbore barrel that I use for turkey in case I need/want to make a long shot out to 40 yards for example, and have taken a Tom at that distance.
More recently reality is that I now bring them in to the 22-25 yard range...dumped one last spring at only 22 yards with a different open choke .20ga Flintlock and a load of #7's.

My .28ga Flintlocks are cylinder bore and have taken squirrels out to 25-30 yards so they're fine as is for that kind of small game & distance.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Thanks Mr. roundball your information is always helpful :bow: . As to just doing what I want without worrying too much about being historically correct, that is my general course of action. But there's no sense in my heaping disrespect on others' viewpoints either, as I'd rather remain on friendly terms with everybody on the forum.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Try making a cardboard "collar" out of card stock( Index cards) to fit INSIDE the fabric cup. This will protect the pellets more, and will hold the shot load longer after it leaves the bore, so that you get tighter patterns at longer ranges. As long as the collar is wide enough to protect the entire Length of the load in the cup, and LONG enough to complete circle the inside of the cup, with a small overlap, you should get consistent results.