Pedersoli Classic with both barrels bulged.

[vintovka]

Actually I did read the OP but not many gunsmiths have the tool to measure the bores and he has made no mention of actually measuring the ID of the barrels at different locations so I was assuming this smith didn't have that ability.

This is what i use if bulge is not too far from muzzles

https://www.amazon.com/Fowler-Xtra-...words=internal+calipers&qid=1626049359&sr=8-4
If bulge is large enough to let gas past could affect pattern.

 

[Rudall]

Guess we wait to hear from OP about what his gunsmith ‘discovers’. Personally, as long as there is no obstruction in the bores, I would shoot as is and see how it patterns

Exactly. I can’t really see what three pages of speculation has achieved or what the OP was hoping to learn. An email to Pedersoli would elicit a swift response in my experience.

 

[3Setters]

I think the OP should send to me for some serious testing, I'll pay the postage.

 

[vintovka]

Maybe put a ding in Pedersolis QA?QC rep?

 

[Glenn A. Smith]

So here is the story. I am the new owner of a 1991 Pedersoli Classic SxS 12ga.(via trade not $$$) On close inspection now that it is mine, I discovered the bulges shown . Tried to get photos down the barrel but not much luck there. I have it in the hands of a gunsmith now who was somewhat mesmerized by the consistency, exactly matching locations and nearly exact sizes of these bulges.. the muzzlw photos show that some "welding" or "re-soldering has occurred so he is now researching to see if somewhere someone attmepted a "jugchoke" by somehow rolling a bulge into the barrels. Once he is done checking these bulges out, we will be either strapping it to a Lead Sled for test shots, or sawing the barrels back to clean bores. By the way the choke, IC&M I think. in both barrels is still there on the exit end of these bulges. Any and all comments are appreciated in advance.
View attachment 83974View attachment 83974View attachment 83974View attachment 83975
Here is the response from Pedersoli.

Dear Mr. Smith,

Thank you for your email.

The shotgun was produced an shipped to Navy Arms in the 1991, too long time to check the documents to know if it was made following the requests of Navy Arms Company.

If the shotgun is in good condition, you should not be concerned of what appear to be a bulge to the barrels, which are strong and went through the forced Proof Tests obligatory for all the European guns.

Best regards,
Customer service




DAVIDE PEDERSOLI & C.
Via Artigiani, 57
I-25063 GARDONE VALTROMPIA
(Brescia) Italy

 

[Glenn A. Smith]

Maybe put a ding in Pedersolis QA?QC rep?

I contacted them and have posted their response which was basically "if it is in good condition dont worry about the bulges, just shoot it.". Now I wait for my Gunsmith's evaluation. Then off to check how it patterns.

 

[Glenn A. Smith]

I think it left the factory that way. Since it is so close to the muzzle I would not worry about it. You need to use slightly larger over powder wads and felt or cushion wads anyway. I do not think you will have any issues. Still get the barrels measured on the inside diameters. That close to the muzzles I would not worry about it as it appears it left the shop like that. Shoot it and enjoy.

I am of a mind to go shooting. As soon as I get it back from the Gunsmith.

 

[Rudall]

I contacted them and have posted their response which was basically "if it is in good condition dont worry about the bulges, just shoot it.".

As in post #12. Historian is the winner!

 

[Ironoxide]

To me it looks like both barrels were short started. This explains the same location of both bulges. It is very easy to make a mistake like this during a shoot especially when everyone is firing cartridge guns and you're the only one with a muzzleloader

However, I think there are many opportunities to notice it when loading shot. The person who short started those barrels probably shot patched round ball. I shot prb with my Pedersoli SxS classic few times but I haven't developed a proper accurate load yet.

Last time I was on a clay shoot I realised just before putting the cap on I had double loaded one barrel in my Pedersoli SxS. Previously I scored a hit with the first shot and I forgot(when moving back from the shooting line we remove caps from barrels that remain loaded) so when I reloaded I mistakenly reloaded both barrels. Good I realised before firing. I managed to pull the second load with a ball puller. (the load is from the top - thin card wad, 1.25 ounces of shot, a 3/4 inch cork wad, 80 grains of 3f). After pulling that second load I shot the first with no probs.

Also few years ago, I was on a range with another muzzleloader with round barrel that shall remain nameless. I was loading and shooting while talking to some people. I got distracted and short started a patched round ball. The resulting shot sounded perfectly normal and I thought I missed. Until I looked at the barrel and saw a new "jug choke" on my round barrel. It looked exactly like in op's photo (but on a single barrel),without any lines apparent. If I was the op I would worry the lines visible are cracks in the metal. If this was the case I would shorten the barrels. If the metal is not cracked I would pattern it and decide then. My "jug choke" had outside diameter half mm (20 thou) diameter larger than normal if I remember correctly.

My bulged muzzleloader shot perfectly fine with the bulge. It didn't rip patches etc. Accuracy seemed the same, but I hated the look of it so I shortened it.

Since then I'm extra careful when using a short starter. I never stop mid way through loading to chat to people, to have a sip of water etc. I also run a marked ramrod down the bore every single time before putting the cap on. That's how I caught my double load during the clay shoot. It is a very useful habit to have.

 

[ZUG]

If both barrels were short started and fired one barrel would bulge first and would dislodge the rib and separate the first barrel from the other then when the second barrel was discharged the separation would get worse -- I say that this SXS was done at the factory as stated on the Pedersoli letter. The bulges are too uniform to be done accidentally.

 

[Ironoxide]

If both barrels were short started and fired one barrel would bulge first and would dislodge the rib and separate the first barrel from the other then when the second barrel was discharged the separation would get worse -- I say that this SXS was done at the factory as stated on the Pedersoli letter. The bulges are too uniform to be done accidentally.

Nope, Pedersoli barrels are hard soldered with a braze. A light load (60 grains of 3f for example, behind a tightly patched. 690 ball). It is perfectly possible to bulge barrels without dislodging ribs.

Editne more thing. They are uniform precisely because of the machanism of "short starting". This happens when you have a short starter that looks like this.

You put the powder in both barrels. You put your balls in the muzzles and you use the long leg of the short starter to seat both balls at exactly the same distance from the muzzle. Then someone distracts you and you fire that with the result as on the pictures.

Also, mind that this is a smoothbore firing a (likely undersized) ball as one barrel is usually a cylinder and another modified choke (from factory, no screw in chokes). Therefore there isn't that much pressure acting when the powder column reaches the ball. Enough to bulge, not enough to rip apart brazed ribs.

As to the gun I would just shoot it, or shorten it depending on esthetical preference of the owner.

 

[3Setters]

My offer still stands, I could give it a good workout next weekend shooting 5 stand

The barrels arent bulged, they were formed that way to allow for choke tubes. I had similar barrels on an unmentionable shotgun years ago(before I left it on the cap of my truck and drove away)

 

[Ironoxide]

My offer still stands, I could give it a good workout next weekend shooting 5 stand

The barrels arent bulged, they were formed that way to allow for choke tubes. I had similar barrels on an unmentionable shotgun years ago(before I left it on the cap of my truck and drove away)

The muzzles look exactly like my fixed choke classic SxS Pedersoli model. Allegedly Pedersoli made some SxS with screw in chokes. The only info about them is in the general muzzleloading manual where they provide drawings how those tubes look and how they can be identified. Here is the relevant part

As you can see choke tubes are marked with lines. There are no such lines on the op's photo. Exactly like on my fixed choke model.
Here are my photos.


In my opinion anyone who says this was factory made has never seen a bulged short started round barrel muzzleloader.

Also, this can be resolved very easily by the owner taking off the barrels and taking a picture of the marking on the underside near the breech. My classic SxS has 4 and 3 on the barrels which means Improved cylinder (4) and modified (3) chokes machined by the factory.

I believe factory interchangeable choke barrels would simply have caliber in mm stamped rather than choke numbers.

 

[ZUG]

Are you SURE the barrel/ribs are brazed together -- your picture of the muzzle looks very much like a lead solder. My two Pedersoli (one 10 gauge and one 12 gauge not choked) made in the 80's also look like yours and I very much believe that that are soft soldered if it was a braze it would show up as brass color not silver color unless you are saying that Pedersoli uses a silver braze which I do not believe is true. If they ARE brazed then I would like to see where Pedersoli states it. Otherwise I stand by my two posts - most humbly - ZUG.

 

[Ironoxide]

Are you SURE the barrel/ribs are brazed together -- your picture of the muzzle looks very much like a lead solder. My two Pedersoli (one 10 gauge and one 12 gauge not choked) made in the 80's also look like yours and I very much believe that that are soft soldered if it was a braze it would show up as brass color not silver color unless you are saying that Pedersoli uses a silver braze which I do not believe is true. If they ARE brazed then I would like to see where Pedersoli states it. Otherwise I stand by my two posts - most humbly - ZUG.

I am absolutely, positively sure. There is soft solder only at the muzzle. You may ask, how come I'm sure about it? I'm sure because I desoldered a double Pedersoli barrel a month ago. You can see details in the gun builders section. It had same soft solder in the muzzle, but both ribs and barrels were brazed with yellow braze that went liquid between 600~650C. I can supply pictures for unbelievers.

Edit: one more thing. I just remembered I wrote Pedersoli few years ago asking about the solder in context of using hot bluing salts on one of their double barrels. They replied saying they use "high temperature solder". At the time I didn't know what they meant. But I found out last month. To melt the solder/braze on the ribs and barrels I had to preheat the barrels to 600C with my heat treatment oven and then apply a propane torch to raise the temp few tens degrees to melt. Here is one picture that shows the color of the braze.

It is the same way right until the muzzle, but this photo doesn't show it. I guess you'll have to believe me(or not).

 

[ZUG]

Not doubting your statement and it seems that you know from the experience from your barrel reworking. But as we can not know what the previous owners have or have not done to this SXS and given the Pedersoli letter written to the OP I still say it was a factory job -

 

[Ironoxide]

Not doubting your statement and it seems that you know from the experience from your barrel reworking. But as we can not know what the previous owners have or have not done to this SXS and given the Pedersoli letter written to the OP I still say it was a factory job -

Well. We're all entitled to our own conclusions. If you're not convinced by me that's fine. At the end of the day there is no way of knowing what the previous owner did or didn't do.

However, Pedersoli is a "premium" manufacturer and believing they would knowingly produce bulged barrels flies right in the face of everything I know about them.

The fact they replied the owner shouldn't worry about the bulges is in no way an admission this is how the gun left the factory. It just says that the steel they use is strong enough to take a bulge like this and not break. Also using a short starter perfectly explains exact same location of both bulges. So I'm done here. I'll let the readers draw their own conclusions

 

[Glenn A. Smith]

This is what i use if bulge is not too far from muzzles

https://www.amazon.com/Fowler-Xtra-...words=internal+calipers&qid=1626049359&sr=8-4
If bulge is large enough to let gas past could affect pattern.

Thanks for the link. I just ordered myself a set. With my old set of Vernier Calipers the left barrel measures .695 ID at the muzzle, the right barrel is .698 ID which even allowing for operator error of 2% +/- means both barrels are still
mighty close to Full Choke. what say you?

Hi Glenn, you wrote it dates 1991, what about the previous owner? Can you be sure how the shotgun was treated?

MGA, no Idea how it was treated by the original owner.

 

[vintovka]

Just toss this in but steel shot is seems to be causing some interesting issues. Being somewhat incompressable, steel shot might need very little constriction to play havoc.

 

[Ironoxide]

If you're worried about safety of those bulges don't. Pedersoli uses really good steel (30CrMo4/EN 1.7216). Supposedly same type of steel as was used for German machine gun barrels in WW2.
They already replied the gun is safe to shoot.

The below is for people like me interested in verifying it for themselves

The way all steels break is by elongation. One can roughly estimate if a given steel has reached close to its breaking point by comparing actual deformation with maximum elongation for this type of steel given in tables. This particular steel comes in two varieties. Tempered or annealed. As not many people can measure Brinell hardness at home when estimating safety we have to assume the worse of the two. Tempered is much stronger but its elongation at break is only 12%, Annealed is weaker, but it can elongate to 23%. We can't simply measure the bulge and if the resulting diameter is less than 112% of the normal call it good, because within the bulge itself there are areas where steel elongated more than others. However, if we measure the bulge (outside) and the diameter increase is let's say 3% bigger. At the same time there are no cracks at all. I would consider it safe and shoot it myself.

If it patterns well just shoot it.

Regarding steel shot. Many Pedersoli SxS (like mine) have chrome lined barrels. I don't know when exactly they started doing that. If your gun has chromed barrels steel shot is fine. To find out if you can't tell by looking, or test the surface (by using bluing liquid) best to write Pedersoli with the serial number.


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