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Offhand shooting, need some help

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In looking at your target I can see how the center of the bench shot group in tending to the right as well as your offhand group. I see no flinching evidence in the offhand group.
Again, try moving your feet so you tend more to the left and I think your group will follow.
I'd move the rear sight a scosh left as well.
One more thing I'd try is making sure you are pulling the trigger from the middle straight back and not from the right side.
If you have to reach for the trigger it will pull your shot to the side as well.This is the reason I do not care for double set triggers that fire from the front trigger.
 
I'm right handed.

I went out to the range again today and took my .22 along. I figured I would remove the flintlock variables. Shooting it offhand at 25 yards I was grouping 1.5 inches to the right of the bulls eye. From the bench it will shoot dead center, I was trying to position my body 90 degrees from the target so I would be facing it sideways. I will have to work on playing with the foot position.

Shooting my flintlock after the 22, again I was grouping to the right, but not quite as far to the right as I was the other day. I did try shooting from the bench supporting the rifle with my left hand with my elbow on the bench. I could shoot center like that.

Before the getting my flintlock I would shoot my Pedersoli percussion Kentucky rifle. Shooting it offhand I would hit center with it the majority of the time. Before that when I shot my 22 a lot I could shoot it center offhand. I'm not sure what has changed, I'm doing something that is off.
 
First of all for offhand shooting, you absolutely have to establish your natural point of aim as described above. Because we spend a fair amount of time in the reloading process of muzzle loading, I often check for this while firing a string of shots, before I fire a shot. Also, if we load at a bench or off the firing line, then it is critically important to re-establish your natural point of aim EVERY TIME you go back to the firing line to shoot.

I wonder if you may be "canting" the rifle either on the bench or when you shoot offhand, but not in the other position? "Canting" in this case means you turn the rifle slightly, either to the right or left, so the sights are not straight up and down.

It is also quite possible that you may not be centering the front sight in the center of the rear as well in the offhand position as the bench position and/or that is just the way your eyesight works.

With my astigmatism, I long ago learned I have to really crowd right up close to the rear sight to get the most consistent sight picture/sight alignment. Of course on many rifles and shotguns, that means I get smacked in the mouth on every shot fired. I long ago figured out I would put up with that to shoot the best I can.

I mention this because not everyone can do everything "exactly right" and still shoot the smallest groups or the most accurately they can.

One year at a Division Match, we were using M9 pistols. Now, we were not allowed to file down or weld up the front sights to correct for elevation, but we were allowed to move the rear sights to the right or left. One of the other experienced NM Armorers asked if I could help with a shooter that the NM Armorer could not seem to adjust the windage on the rear sight to suit him. I asked the shooter to bring me his target to see exactly where he was hitting and twice corrected the rear sight, but to no avail.

Finally I told him I wanted to go the line and watch him shoot. Good Grief, he REALLY jerked that trigger like no other shooter I had ever witnessed in years on firing lines, but to my amazement it was THE most controlled and uniform Jerking of the trigger every time he fired, so he fired very small groups.

OK, so that put me/him in a dilemma, because we only had about 6 more practice days before they fired for record in the Match and that was not enough time to correct everything he was not doing right, as others had already tried to work with him.

So I followed him down range after firing one string to paste up his target, which is extremely unusual for an Armorer to do. When he got done pasting up his target, I asked him for the roll of black "pasties" that are used to cover the holes in the target. I looked carefully at how high and to the right his groups were, then put a square of four pasties that much down and to the left of the center of the target. Then I told him to aim at that square of pasties on the next string of fire.

Sure enough his groups were well centered in the bullseye and if he shot that well on Record Day, he was bound to "Medal" in the Match. That is not common for a "First Year Shooter." He was amazed his group had centered so well.

I explained to him the way he was jerking the trigger, caused him to "pull" his shots high and to the right, but there was no way I could mechanically center the sights on his pistol to put him in the center of the bullseye. So what I recommended was to put a square of pasties on each target, before he fired on the target. It worked on record day and he got a very low Bronze place, but he did medal.

I joked with the members of THE Marine Corps Pistol Team that they would have a lot of work to get him to stop Jerking the Heck out of the trigger at the Marine Corps Matches and on the Summer Team if he got that far, but at least he could shoot a very tight group.

Gus
 
Here is a link to a "Shooting Error Chart" for shooting pistols. Please notice one has to reverse the error analysis when going from left to right hand shooting or vise versa. http://www.katychl.com/images/handgun_shooting_symptom_chart.jpg

There is also an error chart for rifles that is more instructive for them, but I can't seem to find it on the internet. Perhaps someone else can find it.

Gus
 
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It's not your feet..

It's likely your head, shoulder and arm placement unless you're switching eyes....

Is your elbow parallel to your shoulder or is it at a 45 degree angle or more to the ground when you shoot?
 
Looks to me like you are a right hand shooter and pulling to the right during trigger squeeze, Try a jaw knot which is a piece of leather strap fastened to the left side of the trigger guard with a knot tied in the tag end you will have to adjust the length a few times. This knot is held with your jaw teeth in the left side of your mouth and will stop the pull on the weapon to the right. The other tings I would suggest is check how much finger your placing on the trigger and perhaps loosen your supporting hand a bit on the forearm. R.C.
 
get a cheap pellet rifle add some weight to get close to your rifle and shoot it a lot.

I did that with a .22 single shot when I had problems.
 
I would suggest is check how much finger your placing on the trigger and perhaps loosen your supporting hand a bit on the forearm. R.C.

Could also be his right hand grip on the gun...The wrong grip can flex one of the big muscles in the hand pushing the rifle butt to the left when the trigger is pulled...sending the bullet to the right .
 
A flintlock has a SUBSTANTIALLY longer barrel dwell time than a cap lock. In fact, almost 3x more. Ans a cap lock has 2-3x more than a modern match grade .22. Since your .22 groups are to the right, that tells you which direction the barrel is swinging at the time of bullet exit. The greater distance from the center is a result of the longer dwell time. That's part of what makes them so much more challenging to shoot well.
 
The remedy is to keep shooting.
Lately my shooting has gone to...
It really does not matter what you used to do. If you need to adjust the sights on that 22, do so. Be consistent get it to center.

I have got to start fresh with my longrifle. It has some igintion issues...
Funny thing
I have been getting a lot of pan flashes. When this happens I'm steady, no movement. Now I hopefully have the ignition worked out... now when it fires it seems I momentarily loose control of the rifle. If this is a flinch... how can I hold steady on a pan flash but flinch when it does go off? It's like I'm losing my follow through.

I was all over the place with a Smoothbore that always shoots well. Heck I even missed a deer with my off topic Rifle... a dead miss.
I'm all screwed up. I got to get my mojo back.

This is what I plan to do.
A big target...
First I don't care where it is hitting. I want a good group. Once I get a good group... then I'll move it over. I'm blessed with a place I can shoot every day if I wish. I'm planning to do a few shots every day. Like you I may get the 22 out.

Even with spotty ignition the rifle shot a good group off the bench, center but a little high. Off hand I'm all over the place.

This rifle has a 44 inch barrel. Maybe I'm trying too hard...aiming to long, then ultimately rushing the shot.

When you bring the muzzle to bear and line up the sights there is a moment of steadiness. After this moment the muzzle starts to drift. Oddly enough that moment may last a little longer with a straight barreled or muzzle heavy gun. Some folks refer to this as "hanging on the target".

To take advantage of this, as soon as the sights are lined up and steady...fire. When I aim for a long period I start to drift. The trick is to do this but not rush the shot.

The long aim...

Sometimes you have to do a long aim. Ideally it would be best to have a prop. A tree, something to steady with.

Gus being a Marine may be familiar with the figure 8. Offhand on a long aim the muzzle starts to drift. Since the strength is not there to hold steady...the wander is controlled somewhat by using that motion of uncontrolled wander into a controlled figure 8. The X of the 8 is the center. A good shooter can time it where the rifle fires as it crosses the x of the 8. Very doable with a Garrand, not so easy with a flint longrifle.

I may work my problem out with a black target with a small white center. That way for each short session, I'm focused on the target rather than chasing holes via subconscious Kentucky Windage. After the session I'll see what's going on rather than trying to correct after each shot.

I have been told by some that I'm the best iron sight shooter they have ever seen.
So it pains me to shoot poorly. So I have work to do. With work I'll get it back, so will you. :hatsoff:
 
I went through a period of about 2 years where I would have "bad days" shooting about 80% of the time. Blamed the gun. Blamed the next gun....then the next. NOPE twas me. No clue why but lately I have come back. Mid life crisis w/o the funds for a new rifle maybe :idunno:
 
Koauke:

Your standing group shows that you are very consistent in your hold for elevation. Most shooters who shoot a post front sight tend to string vertically because they have problems seeing a consistent elevation hold with a blade front sight. Your hold for elevation is fine and this tells me that the part of your position that regulates a hold for elevation is pretty damn good. It also says your trigger control is also pretty good. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be able to hold elevation like you are.

Why out the right like that? Mostly because the lock is on that side. Doesn't take much of a smack downward on the right side of a rifle to move the barrel right. Why not down as well? Because your position is resisting a downward movement.

A position does basically three things for a shooter. First, it brings the sights to the eyes. Second, it points the barrel at the target. Third, it keeps the barrel pointed at the target through the entire shot, from trigger pull through the exit of the bullet from the barrel. Since muzzle loaders and black powder rifles in general have very slow lock and barrel times, keeping the thing pointed where you want it through an entire shot is more challenging than with a modern centerfire rifle.

No one can tell what you are or aren't doing by watching you shoot. Unless you are using a ball and dummy sort of drill as one of the guys described in a post. You load the blaster and hand it to someone who either primes the pan or doesn't prime the pan. They hand it back to you and you take your shot without knowing if it will go off or not. That is a very good drill for a shooter since it allows him to see exactly what he is doing when he fires a shot. And this leads to calling shots.

Calling shots is simply the most fundamental and important skill a marksman can develop because his performance is based on his ability to pull a trigger when his eyes see a sight picture he knows is good enough for success. Simply put, calling shots is the process where you can tell yourself where the shot went on the target without having to look. At first success will be calling center or a cardinal direction and maybe a distance. As you train your eyes to see more, your calls become more precise until you are calling to within a minute of your shot about 80% of the time. Sometimes you will just be wrong so accept it and keep working on it. Success is good calls, not necessarily high scoring shots. A call left in the 7 ring with the hole exactly where you called it is as successful as a center call with a shot center X.

If you can call your shots reasonably well, you have the information you need to troubleshoot your own performance. You will also see a couple of patterns of movement of the barrel into the black that have allowed you to make good shots. Train your eyes to see these patterns and train your finger to move.

One of the guys mentioned dry firing with a piece of wood in the jaws of a flintlock. Super good idea since it will let you see if your position is holding the rifle through a shot. It will also allow you to train your eyes to call your shots.

A couple other things you may want to consider.

Positions change as your body relaxes and stretches out, as you devise better ways of pointing, as you gain more confidence in your ability. You will be constantly assessing your positions and changing things as you become better and more confident.

Your best performance standing will most likely occur between shots 10 and about 40 in a training session. Try to end a training session with a successful shot that you can keep in your memory until the next training session.

You will also find that if you practice more than three or at most four times a week, your performance will drop. Give yourself a day between sessions so you may continue to see improvement that is due to your efforts and not chance.

$10.00 please.

Scipio
 
Haven't had a chance to get on here and leave another thank you. Thanks again for all the input, extremely helpful.

Its been busy and I have yet to get out and work through it all, but hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'll have some time to get out and shoot.
 
Years ago I was pulling my shots to the right and up. ( right handed)
Until I found this exercise: pretend you have a potato in your shooting hand, squeeze it with thumb and 3 fingers while keeping your trigger finger loose. Move your trigger finger softly while your hand is tensed up.
 
Pull the rifle firmly into the shoulder with both arms and hands. The trigger finger should be totally relaxed and should not touch the wood (or side of the stock) of the rifle. All muscles of the arms and hands should be firm but not tensed and the shoulders should be also firm but relaxed enough so the rifle can recoil straight back. If you change anything by tightening the muscles at recoil the shot will not be true. The arms must maintain and work as a unit. If you let your trigger finger engage the stock (called dragging wood) the shot will generally impact right for a right hander.

The biggest problem with offhand shooting is that people try to hold directly on the target without any movement and nobody can do that. The sights will drift on and off the bull and you will need to time the release/trigger pull when it drifts on bull. A good amount of time will be needed shooting offhand before it becomes a sub-conscious reaction to the target. Next time you are shooting offhand pay attention to your form and see if you are jerking or rushing the shot at the bull. You should not tense up at the shot. Start with light loads at short range and build up.

Scopes will magnify the movement/drifting on and off the bull and a scoped .22 rifle is excellent for developing your skill. Handguns also have a lot of wobble on target and develop your skills as well. Time the release.
 
Spot on Col. The dwell time is much longer with flinters. I would bet he is jerking at the trigger when he gets on bull. Consistent load and consistent ignition time is important.

You need to learn your wobble with each type of firearm and tighten that wobble as much as possible. There will always be wobble offhand; it's not bench shooting with no wobble.
 

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