New to the forum and Muzzleloading and I need some help with a Rifle decision.

[Ponderosaman]

I remember reading on here that the deep curve in the stock on some rifles fits into your upper bicep rather than on your chest. The more knowledgeable guys on here will correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Zutt-man]

I’ve used a .40 for years shooting deer and it works just fine with a well placed ball. It generally stops on the other side of the hide. I’ve also used a .54 long rifle on elk and it did the trick, again with a well placed ball.

I’m damn near solely hunting with my .58 Kibler Colonial I put together last year now during the muzzleloader and rifle seasons here in KS. I’ve taken it through some thick stuff which can be a pain, but it’s fairly open for the most part in my area.

If you’re starting out with a flintlock and using it for the purpose of hunting, there are plenty of used guns that go on sale here for quite a bit less than your gun shop flinter. That includes Kiblers. You won’t see me say anything negative about a Kibler as I absolutely love mine. Best shooting ML I’ve owned or shot.

 

[tecum-tha]

The most important part if you plan to hunt with the rifle is the LOP. What you can easily shoot with a T-Shirt on and what can easily be shot with thick winter clothes on is not always the same. Most of the rifles built from kits are all 14" LOP. For a lot of people that works well, for others it doesn't. A quite tall National ML champion in flintlocks shoots rather short LOP for his height. I chose the wrong LOP with my first custom rifle, because I measured another rifle in summer with a T-Shirt on. This rifle did not work out hunting for me. Rifle is a tack driver on the bench and for summer shooting, but in cold weather hunting clothes, my shoulder moves the gun just when I reach for the trigger. Many misses. $2k lesson learned. Corrected this mistake and went 3/4" shorter and no problems hunting and target shooting in all weather conditions. IMHO this is one of the great overlooked measurements for flint guns especially.
Drop at heel of the gun and cast off: When you shoulder the gun, your eyes should automatically align with the sights.
Body height, arm length, body build is different with everyone out there. Make sure to know if you are the average guy or have certain issues.
Do you have issues carrying weight? Get the largest caliber the barrel weight offers. Get a swamped barrel or octagon to round for good balance.
Do you have to walk a good distance to your hunting spot? Would a gun with a sling be handy for your situation?
Longrifles do not carry good on slings. Jaeger rifles do. Shorter barrels, large calibers, little recoil due to wide (early) butt plates.
Later longrifles with smaller calibers and hawkens have more crescent butt plates. That works ok standing or kneeling, but not for prone shooting. In the developement of the American Longrifle, versatility of use was imho left behind somewhat.
With Jaeger rifles and flintlocks, stay away from Italian reproductions. The locks are flint eaters and the guns do not have flint breeches. I started out with a Pedersoli and it nearly made me quit the sport. Gun was redone by me in a Pedersoli to Lancaster Conversion. New breech, new lock. Now good gun. Never worth the trouble saving some $$ on Italian flint guns. Exception: Percussion and the Brown Bess (has real flint breech).
And I shoot an original Jaeger rifle from around 1745.

 

[FishDFly]

tecum-tha did a good job.

Another thing to look at is the placement of the rear sight. Most builders set the rear sight 14" from the breech. As you get older the rear sight needs to be set further forward so the eye can focus on the rear sight, it need to be clear and crisp.

Need a quality lock and triggers.

Hand needs to be comfortable around the trigger guard.

Butt plate, wide and flat. Curved ones are hard on your shoulder.

 

[LonePine]

The most important part if you plan to hunt with the rifle is the LOP. What you can easily shoot with a T-Shirt on and what can easily be shot with thick winter clothes on is not always the same. Most of the rifles built from kits are all 14" LOP. For a lot of people that works well, for others it doesn't. A quite tall National ML champion in flintlocks shoots rather short LOP for his height. I chose the wrong LOP with my first custom rifle, because I measured another rifle in summer with a T-Shirt on. This rifle did not work out hunting for me. Rifle is a tack driver on the bench and for summer shooting, but in cold weather hunting clothes, my shoulder moves the gun just when I reach for the trigger. Many misses. $2k lesson learned. Corrected this mistake and went 3/4" shorter and no problems hunting and target shooting in all weather conditions. IMHO this is one of the great overlooked measurements for flint guns especially.
Drop at heel of the gun and cast off: When you shoulder the gun, your eyes should automatically align with the sights.
Body height, arm length, body build is different with everyone out there. Make sure to know if you are the average guy or have certain issues.
Do you have issues carrying weight? Get the largest caliber the barrel weight offers. Get a swamped barrel or octagon to round for good balance.
Do you have to walk a good distance to your hunting spot? Would a gun with a sling be handy for your situation?
Longrifles do not carry good on slings. Jaeger rifles do. Shorter barrels, large calibers, little recoil due to wide (early) butt plates.
Later longrifles with smaller calibers and hawkens have more crescent butt plates. That works ok standing or kneeling, but not for prone shooting. In the developement of the American Longrifle, versatility of use was imho left behind somewhat.
With Jaeger rifles and flintlocks, stay away from Italian reproductions. The locks are flint eaters and the guns do not have flint breeches. I started out with a Pedersoli and it nearly made me quit the sport. Gun was redone by me in a Pedersoli to Lancaster Conversion. New breech, new lock. Now good gun. Never worth the trouble saving some $$ on Italian flint guns. Exception: Percussion and the Brown Bess (has real flint breech).
And I shoot an original Jaeger rifle from around 1745.

That's must be one good feeling to take of a 276 year old piece of history that still fulfills its intended purpose. I know there is supposed to be an Antique Gunshow near Baltimore Maryland come March I think I am going to wait on buying a flintlock until then just to see what is at the show whether it is original or new factory doesn't matter to me but owning an original sounds pretty neat. I'm sure an original isn't suited for a beginner but still a cool thought.

 

[jackpine54]

Welcome to the forum!
The best advise from above is to handle and shoot as many different types as you can before you spend your money. The one you end up with may not be what you like the looks of now.
Barrel length doesn't really make a gun harder to get around with, but it can make it balance different. I hunt with a 44" barrel fusil in the cedar swamp and goose blinds, no problems. Spend a few days reading on this forum and go find some people to shoot with. No matter what you end up with it'll be a learning experience. Happy hunting.

 

[FishDFly]

"Barrel length doesn't really make a gun harder to get around with,"

Not true.

 

[Brokennock]

"Barrel length doesn't really make a gun harder to get around with,"

Not true.

Sorry buddy, have to agree to disagree here.
More than 20 years of hunting with a longbow and I don't know how many with a longrifle/Fusil des Chase, never found length to be an issue.
The only time I've found gun length to be an issue, when hunting, is bird hunting in thick cover. And even that really comes down to bad tactics on my part.
Gun length is an issue with unmentionable guns when working in and around vehicles or other tight quarters. But, in the woods, I've only had issue with it when I messed up.

 

[Ed Pilkington]

Happy New year LONEPINE do take a look at my .54. I think you would be pleased.g

 

[FishDFly]

Sorry buddy, have to agree to disagree here.
More than 20 years of hunting with a longbow and I don't know how many with a longrifle/Fusil des Chase, never found length to be an issue.
The only time I've found gun length to be an issue, when hunting, is bird hunting in thick cover. And even that really comes down to bad tactics on my part.
Gun length is an issue with unmentionable guns when working in and around vehicles or other tight quarters. But, in the woods, I've only had issue with it when I messed up.

Guess you know where I hunt and what the vegetation is like!

 

[Ed Pilkington]

43.25” swamped barrel

 

[Grenadier1758]

I remember reading on here that the deep curve in the stock on some rifles fits into your upper bicep rather than on your chest. The more knowledgeable guys on here will correct me if I’m wrong.

You are quite correct. There are a couple of advantages that apply based on caliber.

A small caliber rifle, perhaps 40 caliber and smaller, will have the deeply curved butt plate nestled just above the bicep. The rifle is aimed across the chest with the chest and trunk supporting the barrel for a steady offhand hold.

When you have the deeply curved butt plate on a large caliber rifle with substantial recoil, the butt plate on the upper bicep and the rifle across the chest will allow the trunk to turn on recoil with most of the recoil being absorbed during the turning and not resisting recoil as would be in the more usual hold with a flat butt plate and the rifle being held straight out from the chest. The across the chest hold also provides better support for the heavier plains type rifles.

Proper mounting of a rifle with the curved butt plate takes a bit to get used to but can be beneficial with respect to the location of bruises on the shoulder and performance on the target.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

You talk about trying different rifles and they just didn't feel right. You have discovered the problem with factory guns and the drop together kits that all you do is place the parts and finish. They are all made to fit what someone decided was the average size shooter. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of us are not average size. The length of pull, the drop of the stock. does it have cast off, the balance point all affect how the rifle fits you and that affects how you shoot. When I first started over 40 years ago my first rifle was a CVA mountain Rifle kit. Nice gun but never could get really good with it because it just didn't fit right. My next rifle I made from parts to fit ME and then I started winning matches.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Before you plunk down the cost of a running used car, follow Phil Coffin's advice. A $2,000 rifle for a beginning shooter would, to me, be like buying a top-end set of golf clubs when all I've ever done is miniature golf. Lots of quality M/L's available at less than 1/2 the price (brand new) and many slightly used ones at even better prices.

Read, research, and find a M/L club to visit. Most here will tell you they didn't get started by themselves. Friendships and memories are what make the M/L community the special thing. Welcome, stick around, and contribute.

I agree with this point also. In regards to caliber, .50-.54-.58 I also go with the .54 the longer the barrel the less weight with the higher caliber especially when you get to the longer barrels, 42" and up. Take a ride to Dixon's like others have said and try a few out, Greg Dixon is an easy going guy who would be glad to help you.

 

[Davey Boy]

I would start out with a small bore cannon and work up from there.

Begin shooting blanks with it to learn the safety

Then go to muzzleloading pistol in 45 or less caliber

 

[tecum-tha]

Why would one shoot small bore canon and pistols before shooting a rifle?
What is shooting blanks gain you?
Right. Nothing. Waste of powder unless you foul your barrel before a match with no sighting shots allowed.

 

[tecum-tha]

@OP: What really helps as well, is building some cardboard guns. You can easily adjust dimension on them by cutting off or gluing on stuff.
It will give you a good idea about LOP, drop at heel and cast-off for your body structure. Also, the length will give you an indication if this gun will be in relation to your height or if it will feel odd to handle.
For example, if you look at a kit Lancaster rifle from Kibler for example, take this picture, scale it for the given LOP. Print it out, cut it out and glue one together made from 2-3 layers of heavy cardboard. If you have to shorten the LOP, you want to shorten the slender wrist area proportionally. Otherwise, the gun will look "cut off".
Drop at heel sets the top of the butt plate in relation to the top of the sight plane,but is measured as an extension of the top of the barrel. Do not forget the approximate sight height. Do not choose a sight that is too low. Often, the barrel axis is "pointing down" slightly, requiring a low front sight.
This is much easier to control with a parallel profile barrel in comparison with a swamped or tapered octagon barrel.
Cast-off will center the barrel longitudinal center axis right below the center of your eye when you shoulder the rifle. Glue more width to the butt plate area to get an idea how the butt plate width fits on your shoulder.

 

[toot]

Welcome.

 

[Ninering62]

Just joined the forum today when a buddy of mine said I can get some of my questions answered here. I am new to Muzzleloading in general. I had an old Inline and it is a cheap as they come rifle I picked up for $25 at a flea market in .44 cal. I have always wanted a flintlock and saw that they can be expensive so for the past year I have been saving up some money. I have a decision to make but I dont know where to start. A local gunsmith shop is selling a .50 cal 46" Barrel with a 1/56 twist long rifle for $2,000 and it is a "Getz". I have also seen a lot of posts on this forum about Kibler Colonials and looked them up I see they have 44" barrel .54 and .58 cal rifles and they can go up to 2,000+ already done besides stain. Which is what I want since I have Huntington's Disease and woodworking precisely is out of the question. Does the barrel length matter at all when it comes to being longer ? I only hunt White Tail deer and I'm in the mountains of Maryland so farthest shots with open sights would be 75~80 yards. Is .50 cal good enough or should I go up to .54 or .58. Anyone know of other gun makers who can make up a rifle as well ? All replies and thoughts are welcome as I really don't know where to start and could really use the help.

https://p1.gunbroker.com/pics/920337000/920337710/thumb_free.jpg

I'm a Md guy too. Heres a link to a nice .58 sidelock for sale at a decent price.