I'm new here but grateful for the information discussed. I have a new Lyman great plains hunter on the way. My plan is to use triple 7 powder with conical bullets. I have read a lot of posts that mention the need to replace the factory nipple. My question is.....Should I buy a musket nipple for the hotter spark or just replace the #11 cap nipple? Any input will be appreciated.
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musket vs #11 caps
- Thread starter chap
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fallaloosa
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My advice would be to take the gun out and shoot it a few times and see how it goes. some folks like to replace the factory nipple but I don't really know why. I usually shoot flintlocks though.
jtmattison
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If you have ignition problems it won't be from the nipple. 777 is hard to ignite. A hot shot nipple might help. A musket nipple may give you trouble with hammer allignment since musket caps are bigger.
Have you considered using real black powder? Even subs like Pyrodex ignite easier than 777.
I guess you could just try it and if you have ignition problems, look for a solution after that.
:hatsoff:
HD
Have you considered using real black powder? Even subs like Pyrodex ignite easier than 777.
I guess you could just try it and if you have ignition problems, look for a solution after that.
:hatsoff:
HD
I use #11 CCI magnum caps on my 45 and 50 cal that have 15/16 inch barrels.I don't have any problem setting off triple seven.Make sure the flash channel is clean and dry before you load it the first time at the range.Get a nipple pick to clean the nipple with after every shot.If you have trouble put some 777 under the nipple.Use patches .020 thick like Hodgdon says in their loading book.60 grs. is all you can use without burning up the patch in a 50 cal.,70 grs. in a 54.Clean the barrel real good before you shoot the first time to get the rust preventitive[url] out.In[/url] may not start to group until you shoot it about 20 times.
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Most of the time I've had misfires on my Lymans, I've traced it to a failure to seat the caps all the way down on the nipple. That's more of a problem after a few shots than it is with a fresh clean nipple. A sure sign that the misfire (or more accurately, the failure of the cap to pop) is a result of poorly seated cap is that it will reliably pop the second time you drop the hammer on it.
I'm careful both to keep the outer surfaces of the nipple clean and to seat the caps firmly.
I'm careful both to keep the outer surfaces of the nipple clean and to seat the caps firmly.
Brown Bear I have the same problem with my Lymans GPR... I waiting for my AMPCO nipple to come in and see if that fixes the problem...
Chap... I havnt used 777 but I have used pyrodex and it goes bang with an #11 cap each and everytime.... Shoot it first and see what happens the worst that could happen is unscrewing the nipple and put a couple grains of real black in the drum then shoot it out or pull the ball.... at least youll know
Chap... I havnt used 777 but I have used pyrodex and it goes bang with an #11 cap each and everytime.... Shoot it first and see what happens the worst that could happen is unscrewing the nipple and put a couple grains of real black in the drum then shoot it out or pull the ball.... at least youll know
Fixing the nipple so that #11 caps fit properly isn't very hard to do if you have a flat file and an electric drill.
Chuck the nipple, clamping on the body (not the threads) with the cone sticking out.
Run the drill at a low speed and rest the flat file on the cone at the same angle as it originally was.
Stop often and check the fit of a new cap. It should seat to full depth but not be loose.
chap: When you get your rifle, do as the others suggested and really clean the bore. It is coated with a rust preventative that is very hard to remove and it will not shoot well until this coating is gone.
Also, plan to file the front sight down. They are intentionally left tall and require filing to suit the loads and range you plan on shooting.
zonie
Chuck the nipple, clamping on the body (not the threads) with the cone sticking out.
Run the drill at a low speed and rest the flat file on the cone at the same angle as it originally was.
Stop often and check the fit of a new cap. It should seat to full depth but not be loose.
chap: When you get your rifle, do as the others suggested and really clean the bore. It is coated with a rust preventative that is very hard to remove and it will not shoot well until this coating is gone.
Also, plan to file the front sight down. They are intentionally left tall and require filing to suit the loads and range you plan on shooting.
zonie
cheatherly
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I have a TC Arms Renegade with Green Mountain fast twist barrel set up to shoot 470 bullets. I use musket caps with this gun. Honestly, the only difference I see; it is slightly louder than with #11 caps. I just like the big top hat caps cuz' they look neat. As others have said, ignition problems are usually traced to a poorly seated cap. It would be best to test fire the weapon before making any modifications. If you did find ignition problems, a 'hot shot' nipple is what I would recomend over a musket cap nipple. #11 caps are somewhat more available, and less expensive. Good luck with the new rifle. :thumbsup:
P.S. My wife has a TC Arms Seneca with a hot shot nipple, it has NEVER misfired (carefull loading techniques help).
P.S. My wife has a TC Arms Seneca with a hot shot nipple, it has NEVER misfired (carefull loading techniques help).
paulvallandigham
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There is such a thing as TOO MUCH OF A GOOD THING, and musket caps fall into that category when they are used on the wrong firearms. The same thing can be said for " Magnum " primers. Now, if you insist on shooting substitute powders like Triple 7, then you have to have a hot cap to ignite the stuff. That justified using the Magnum # 11 caps. But, for most caliber guns, the magnums cause much wider variations in velocity and standard deviation of velocity, when compared to standard #11 caps. Musket caps are even worse. That degrades accuracy, and not just paper accuracy. It degrades usuable accuracy so that you may not understand why you missed a deer or elk. Usually the " Miss " involves shooting over the back of the animal.
So, don't just use magnum percussion caps, or musket caps, " cause the look neat", or they are easier to handle, or for any other reason that has absolutely nothing to do with the performance of your gun and load. Try them out, in your gun, but do so by comparing them to standard caps. Use a chronograph. The Chrony runs about $80. YOU will spend that on a week's gas these days. The chronograph will pay for itself the first day you use it on the range, in the information you gather concerning your gun, and load, and loading and cleaning procedures.
So, don't just use magnum percussion caps, or musket caps, " cause the look neat", or they are easier to handle, or for any other reason that has absolutely nothing to do with the performance of your gun and load. Try them out, in your gun, but do so by comparing them to standard caps. Use a chronograph. The Chrony runs about $80. YOU will spend that on a week's gas these days. The chronograph will pay for itself the first day you use it on the range, in the information you gather concerning your gun, and load, and loading and cleaning procedures.
cheatherly
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90gr Pyrodex ffg 470gr TC Maxi bullet #11 cap = 2 inches @ 150 yards. 90 gr Pyrodex ffg 470gr TC Maxi bullet CCI Musket Cap = 2 inches @ 150 yards. No change in point of impact throughout the trajectory range, or on target. A chronograph is a diagnostic tool, used to help a shooter understand a firearms performance. When a firearm is performing to expectations, assuming safe loading practices are followed, a chronograph is useless. I caution you to consider your assumptions carefully before posting, sir. :v
cheatherly
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.50 cal, it may be a Maxi Hunter, the package labels are faded badly.
paulvallandigham
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Ihave seen some good " lucky " groups that did not hold up to scrutiny when put over a chronograph. They could not be repeated. When you have shot enough to understand good and bad days, and lucky shots, and shooting way above your average, you will understand better why I recommend using a chronograph. It does tell you much about inconsistencies in your loading and cleaning techniques, particularly if you use it in all for seasons, and on both rainy and sunny days, in all four seasons. You learn about powder performance in good and bad weather, what lubes work well in some weather, and not in others, and you learn what you have to do based on the temperature and humidity to keep the gun shooting, and hitting CLOSE to the POA.
None of this is particularly important if the longest shot you will take is at 50 yds, and at a deer sized target standing broadside to you. I would like to think that you don't really believe that a 470 grain bullet is needed to kill either a deer or elk with a ML rifle. At 437.5 grains to the ounce, your slug is way over any reasonable weight for hunting these sized animals. And being that heavy, it is no long range shooter, either, as it will be dropping like a rock after 120 yds.
I don't know what you have against chronographs, but I overcame my reluctance the first day I used mine, and learned far more information that I thought was possible. I eliminated a lot of unnecessary shooting, changed some habits about loading my rifle, change my practice in cleaning it, and have since learned some very interesting ideas about loading and firing ML guns from people on this forum that have proven out over the chronograph. It won't cook lunch, but its a valuable tool for working up loads.
Can a load be worked up that works well, and shoots well without a chronograph? Of course, it can. But you need luck, or lots of time to get there. I have experienced luck with a couple of guns and a couple of loads. I am always delighted at my " Luck ", and celebrate it just like the next guy does. However, I have also spent days and days trying to solve accuracy problems with my guns, and some have taken more than 30 years to figure out, only because it took that long to finally read some suggestions from other shooters that " fixed " the problems. I am still learning, and I have been reloading for about 50 years now, with one gun or another.
Now back to the issue. My experience, and the experience of other shooters who have shot musket caps instead of standard #11 caps is that the musket caps are much hotter, and that the produce wide variations( spikes) in velocity over using the standard caps. Accuracy does suffer. But the guys I am discussing these things with are slug gun, and chunk gun shooters, who test everything to perfection. They are shooting heavy slugs at long ranges, and they need every bit of edge they can get to shoot small groups at 500 and more yards. Any of their guns and loads would shoot rings around anything you may have and I know I have. A hotter cap is not always the better choice for accurate loads. In Black Powder cartridge shooting, Paul Matthews( the Dean of the .45-70, who is still experimenting and writing in his 80s) is finding out that standard pistol primers work best to ignite compacted loads of FFg powder in his .45-70s, rather than large rifle primers, and both are better than the Magnum Rifle primers, regardless of company of origin. Who would have thought that could be true, considering how much press such primers get in shooting large cartridges with smokeless powder loads???
None of this is particularly important if the longest shot you will take is at 50 yds, and at a deer sized target standing broadside to you. I would like to think that you don't really believe that a 470 grain bullet is needed to kill either a deer or elk with a ML rifle. At 437.5 grains to the ounce, your slug is way over any reasonable weight for hunting these sized animals. And being that heavy, it is no long range shooter, either, as it will be dropping like a rock after 120 yds.
I don't know what you have against chronographs, but I overcame my reluctance the first day I used mine, and learned far more information that I thought was possible. I eliminated a lot of unnecessary shooting, changed some habits about loading my rifle, change my practice in cleaning it, and have since learned some very interesting ideas about loading and firing ML guns from people on this forum that have proven out over the chronograph. It won't cook lunch, but its a valuable tool for working up loads.
Can a load be worked up that works well, and shoots well without a chronograph? Of course, it can. But you need luck, or lots of time to get there. I have experienced luck with a couple of guns and a couple of loads. I am always delighted at my " Luck ", and celebrate it just like the next guy does. However, I have also spent days and days trying to solve accuracy problems with my guns, and some have taken more than 30 years to figure out, only because it took that long to finally read some suggestions from other shooters that " fixed " the problems. I am still learning, and I have been reloading for about 50 years now, with one gun or another.
Now back to the issue. My experience, and the experience of other shooters who have shot musket caps instead of standard #11 caps is that the musket caps are much hotter, and that the produce wide variations( spikes) in velocity over using the standard caps. Accuracy does suffer. But the guys I am discussing these things with are slug gun, and chunk gun shooters, who test everything to perfection. They are shooting heavy slugs at long ranges, and they need every bit of edge they can get to shoot small groups at 500 and more yards. Any of their guns and loads would shoot rings around anything you may have and I know I have. A hotter cap is not always the better choice for accurate loads. In Black Powder cartridge shooting, Paul Matthews( the Dean of the .45-70, who is still experimenting and writing in his 80s) is finding out that standard pistol primers work best to ignite compacted loads of FFg powder in his .45-70s, rather than large rifle primers, and both are better than the Magnum Rifle primers, regardless of company of origin. Who would have thought that could be true, considering how much press such primers get in shooting large cartridges with smokeless powder loads???
Dave Rosenthal
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My advice would be to take it out to the range first to see if your gun has a problem, not to just assume that a problem already exists.
The next thing that I would consider is to get a log book so that you can really track your practice with the new gun.
Remember to settle on what ever nipple that your going to use first, before you start even thinking about filing-down the front sight. Different nipples create vastly different ignitions, which can lead to deviations in POI and also effect group size and location on the paper.
Next I would consider using real black powder as it ignites more easily, especially in damp weather in hunting season. I'm assuming that the 470 gr. Maxi being pushed by 90 grains of powder isn't a paper target load :hmm: . I have a load with a .50 cal. 470 gr. T/C Maxi-Hunter that has similar ballistics to a 12 gauge rifled slug round: 100 gr. of 3Fg Goex, then a Circle-Fly wad, then the Maxi on top. Almost 1400 FPS with a chunk of lead that weighs more than a 12 ga. 1 ounce rifled slug! This load is not for paper and you really know that you shot something :shocked2: .
You may find that you really don't need the musket caps$$.
Dave
The next thing that I would consider is to get a log book so that you can really track your practice with the new gun.
Remember to settle on what ever nipple that your going to use first, before you start even thinking about filing-down the front sight. Different nipples create vastly different ignitions, which can lead to deviations in POI and also effect group size and location on the paper.
Next I would consider using real black powder as it ignites more easily, especially in damp weather in hunting season. I'm assuming that the 470 gr. Maxi being pushed by 90 grains of powder isn't a paper target load :hmm: . I have a load with a .50 cal. 470 gr. T/C Maxi-Hunter that has similar ballistics to a 12 gauge rifled slug round: 100 gr. of 3Fg Goex, then a Circle-Fly wad, then the Maxi on top. Almost 1400 FPS with a chunk of lead that weighs more than a 12 ga. 1 ounce rifled slug! This load is not for paper and you really know that you shot something :shocked2: .
You may find that you really don't need the musket caps$$.
Dave
Thanks to everyone for their input, this helps me with the decision. I will stay with the factory nipple and file it down if I need to. On a side note to the discussion between steps up in hotter spark, I have witnessed shots across my chronograph in centerfire rifles where large rifle primers vs magnum primers hurt performance. Thanks again for your input.
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Hey Chap,
Zonie or someone mentioned the rust preventative in the Lymans. It's BAD stuff to get out with conventional cleaning methods, but really affects both accuracy and ease of ball seating till you do so.
Best piece of advice I've ever got here at MLF is to use brake pad cleaner to cut it. On my most recent Lyman I sprayed some on a patch and swabbed it up and down the bore once. Repeated with two more patches, and the bore was mirror bright. Pure, unadulterated magic!
Zonie or someone mentioned the rust preventative in the Lymans. It's BAD stuff to get out with conventional cleaning methods, but really affects both accuracy and ease of ball seating till you do so.
Best piece of advice I've ever got here at MLF is to use brake pad cleaner to cut it. On my most recent Lyman I sprayed some on a patch and swabbed it up and down the bore once. Repeated with two more patches, and the bore was mirror bright. Pure, unadulterated magic!
Catof9tails
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Just like some of the folks said, just try it first factory style. Mess around with some loads and see what happens. Your shooting will break in the barrel over time. You might want to try different powders if you do not have access to blackpowder. Black Mag3 powder works great for me when BP is lacking for purchase.
I haven't had a problem with ignition with #11 caps on the standard Lyman nipple. Test it out and see how things come out.
Cat9
I haven't had a problem with ignition with #11 caps on the standard Lyman nipple. Test it out and see how things come out.
Cat9
chap,
I tried a musket nipple on one of my Investarms
Hawkens and never saw any great advantage,other
than they are a bit easier to handle with old
hands.I currently use CCI#11 magnums and have
but very,very few misfires. When I do it is
usually my fault not the primer or nipple.
snake-eyes:hmm:
I tried a musket nipple on one of my Investarms
Hawkens and never saw any great advantage,other
than they are a bit easier to handle with old
hands.I currently use CCI#11 magnums and have
but very,very few misfires. When I do it is
usually my fault not the primer or nipple.
snake-eyes:hmm:
Others have given great advice. My only suggestion if you plan to use substitute powders would be to try American Pioneer Powder FFF equivilant. IMO it is the cleanest burning, easiest to ignite of the true subs. I say true subs because Pyrodex still uses sulpher and I find it's dirtier than good BP such as Swiss brand.
If your rifle's prime purpose is for hunting don't go nuts working up a perfect load, just get it shooting tight and move on to lighter loads for target shooting.
If your rifle's prime purpose is for hunting don't go nuts working up a perfect load, just get it shooting tight and move on to lighter loads for target shooting.
