is it legal to make black powder?

[aapch1]

This is probably a rehashed question.... I live in Hardin county Ohio, I see no laws saying you cannot manufacture black powder, but there are laws against explosives. This being said, in the context of what I will use my black powder for, (handgonnes) it is a propellant.... so now I'm not sure what to do. This seems like a fuzzy line in the law. There are 0 places near me that sell black powder, only pyrodex. Please help.

 

[flintlock75]

Black Powder is Classified as an Explosive, regardless of application.
It is illegal to manufacture it without the appropriate licenses from the BATF.
If you need powder it can be mail ordered.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Hello, Can't answer your question right off but I bet I know where you can get black powder if you can wait a couple of weeks.

Sept. 21-29, 2012 - NRLHF Eastern Primitive Rendezvous, Troy, Ohio...not to far from you is it? It is a an experience you won't soon forget.
http://www.rendezvousohio.com/Eastern2012_home

I spent my formative years in Allen County and my folks still live there.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Rev_William]

Read this link
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/229301/

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I have heard the same thing, ie that permits from BATF are required. But, it was in the context of supporting the claim that no permit was required to make old fashioned "sugar powder." Since it is not "black" or sporting powder. My thoughts are that explosives are explosives.

My Great Uncle would make sugar powder back in the 1960's, once in a while when he could not get black or felt that a $1 a pound was too expensive. It probably only had about 2/3 the oomph of black.

 

[Zonie]

And although Claudes comment in Rev William's link above said in part,

"We do not discuss the making of Black Powder on the Forum..."

I can say this rule includes "sugar powder" and any other form of explosives.

 

[mattybock]

it's illegal, BUT the batf is an understanding bunch. I asked a field agent about this during my FFL interview and she said as long as you can proof it's purpose and keep it under 50 pounds a year then you probably won't be locked up. Regardless, it is illegal.

If I were you, I'd just go buy pyrodex. $15 for a big pound jar at Academy (a sporting goods chain store). I've shot both and there is not a bit of difference. They both smell like stinky eggs.

 

[jdkerstetter]

....the batf is an understanding bunch....

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: THAT'S RICH!!! Oh, the story's one could tell about how "understanding" the ATF is!!!

I've shot both and there is not a bit of difference. They both smell like stinky eggs.

There are real differences between black powder and the substitutes. Let's don't be spreading missinformation. :shake:

J.D.

 

[Dphar]

This is probably a rehashed question.... I live in Hardin county Ohio, I see no laws saying you cannot manufacture black powder, but there are laws against explosives. This being said, in the context of what I will use my black powder for, (handgonnes) it is a propellant.... so now I'm not sure what to do. This seems like a fuzzy line in the law. There are 0 places near me that sell black powder, only pyrodex. Please help.

Making BP that does more than make smoke is not all that easy.
Better to order powder and have it delivered.
If you know other shooters have them pay you in advance and you can split a 25# case and save quite a bit.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

it's illegal, BUT the batf is an understanding bunch. I asked a field agent about this during my FFL interview and she said as long as you can proof it's purpose and keep it under 50 pounds a year then you probably won't be locked up. Regardless, it is illegal.

If I were you, I'd just go buy pyrodex. $15 for a big pound jar at Academy (a sporting goods chain store). I've shot both and there is not a bit of difference. They both smell like stinky eggs.

There is a lot of difference and its not all in that P-dex won't work in anything that does not use a percussion primer.

Dan

 

[Matt85]

If I were you, I'd just go buy pyrodex. $15 for a big pound jar at Academy (a sporting goods chain store). I've shot both and there is not a bit of difference. They both smell like stinky eggs.

incorrect.

pyrodex is not as good by a longshot, however it does have advantages. pyrodex is less flamable which makes it a little safer to deal with (onley a little), however this means it wont work well in any gun other then inlines and caplocks. ive also found pyrodex to burn cleaner at least the "P" stuff is cleaner then the 3F real BP ive used.

downsides are the stuff is less then great for flintlocks and will not give you as great of groups as real BP. ask any competition shooter, they will tell you real blackpowder is the onley way to go.

if you need real BP then just order it online. there is no source of real BP in my area so i ordered 10 pounds from grafs.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501

 

[S.Kenton]

I can get all the Goex ( real BP) you want. I live not far from Roundhead Ohio..as a matter of fact I am getting ready to pick some more up from my supplier next week. PM me if ya want.

 

[Lonegun1894]

When I called and talked to ATF, I was told that it IS legal, but there were a LOT of stipulations involved that could easily make this a very fine line to walk. It seems like it would be much easier in the long run to just buy it, even though I think it would still be good to know how to make it if needed. As to the stipulations, the major one was that it had to be for your own personal use in a muzzleloader, which is fine by me. Here is the catch. Say I'm at the range shooting my ML with powder I made (not that I would), and one of you walks up and asks to shoot it or borrow some powder. If I let you fire a shot, or borrow some powder, or anything else where powder i made changes hands for whatever reason, I am now guilty of making/selling/transferring/etc an explosive without a license to do so. They said that the way to get around that is to have everyone who may shoot said powder be involved in the manufacture of it, but that still sounds like a hassle to do, and then you have the recordkeeping requirements if you wanted to prove who was present, who paid for what amount of what component, who got how much powder, etc, etc. I'm not going to tell anyone not to make their own as long as they do it safely, but I would suggest that anyone who considers this call ATF and get their own answers before taking a risk. Even in this one thread, we have a post above where one poster got a different answer than I got, so who knows which agent is right or wrong, or which agent will be making the decision if any of us does this. This is after all the internet so do your own checking before trusting your freedom to me or anyone else please.

Now to their credit, the agents I talked to were both very professional and courteous. The first said he didn't know, but transferred me to someone in the "explosives branch" who gave me the answer that "yes it is legal for muzzleloading or other cultural, but here are the stipulations..."

 

[greggholmes]

ATF newsletter

Keep in mind that individuals do not need a manufacturer’s license if they are manufacturing black powder for their own personal, non-business use.

Federal law

page 22
subpart D 555.41(a)(1)
clearly states "engage in business".

Now check your state laws.
Just easier to buy it.

 

[Prairieofthedog]

Matt85,When you ordered 10lbs from Graf's did you get the same price as a case.I thought you had to order a case to get their listed prices?I have to order some just don't need a case and can't get anybody near me to split one.Their website does not have a lot of info.Thanks.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I haven't read the posts because I believe it is against forum rules to discuss the making of bp.
Regardless, making bp is a very dangerous undertaking. We ain't so pc/hc that we want folks blowing themselfs up.
I did see mention of 'sugar powder' don't know, and don't want to know more about that.
All that said, when I was kid, only about 7 through 10 years old in Chicago, I made 'zip guns'. Wanted to emulate the punks. Dunno, stupid kid I guess. I made some kind of powder that would go bang and shoot the guns. Technically they were muzzle loaders, I guess. They would shoot marbles or ball bearings with deadly effect.
Miracle I didn't injure myself or others. We don't need to risk anything by telling how it is done. Buy yer powder and always be careful.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good post.
However, you said:

Even in this one thread, we have a post above where one poster got a different answer than I got, so who knows which agent is right or wrong, or which agent will be making the decision if any of us does this.

Welcome to dealing with the Fed G'bment bureaucrats.
Lesson, get it in writing.

 

[aapch1]

I'm almost sorry I asked. I'm relatively new to the forum. I'll drop a call to the ATF and get it figured out.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Make sure you give 'em your name and address so they can check up on you...or if calling from your home phone, I'm sure then will have that information for future reference.

"Hello. We're from the government and we're here to help." :rotf:

Can you tell I don't trust 'em? :shake:

Seriously though, what ever they tell you, ask them for a reference so you can look it up for yourself...or so your lawyer can look it up for you later.

Good luck, J.D.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Legal isn't as much the question if you are only going to make small quanities (under 50 lb) and use it yourself. As is the quality question. It is a simple mixture but hard to get consistant. Just order from Power Inc. And get good powder!Years ago I made some and never did get a decent powder so I gave up and bought . I suggest you do the same! :idunno: