Pyrodex vs. Black Power & Law

[sotxnoah]

Hi everyone, I’m new to black powder arms and have been reading a lot but wondering what takes others might have on this issue.
In Texas and federal law re: black powder arms the laws dont specify what these arms can or can’t be used for. However, when reading federal law it states black powder can be purchased in qty of <50 lbs “intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms.” What I’m wondering is -
Does Pyrodex fall under “explosives”?
Also what do y’all think about self-defense falling under the category of “cultural”? (Considering the US, and Texas specifically, do have a long tradition of regarding self-defense as a right.) They might not get someone on using a black powder arm for self defense based on a strict reading, but it sounds like the law could be used to interpret that the powder was not used consistent with one of the intended purposes as written above.
I wonder because, well, I made some dumbs choices when I was younger, but I’m an adult now with a family and working in a helping field. I won’t get a regular firearm because I don’t want to be on the wrong side of the law, but I do have a lot to protect at home, namely my family.
Thanks for any replies and God bless from S.TX

 

[RMH]

In the state of Michigan trouble as a youth that left you a convicted felon will prohibit you from legally owning/possessing a black powder firearm. While the ATF does not consider black powder guns firearms, the state of Michigan does. You have to check the laws in the area you live in.

 

[leadhoarder]

The substitutes are not classified the same as real gunpowder. They are classified like smokeless powders even though their chemistries are different.

No way I would select a BP weapon or use BP ammunition for self defense unless it was all I had or there was a rare circumstance such as being held up while I was literally at the range with a loaded cap and ball revolver.

 

[wiscoaster]

Black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex and 777 are sold retail "off-the-shelf" here in Wisconsin without any extra consideration for other regulations that might apply to ammo, such as age verification. I suppose laws that regulate it (or don't) vary from state to state.

If the Feds consider the OP as a "prohibited person" that definition doesn't apply (Federally speaking, though again, state laws may vary) to black powder firearms. There shouldn't be any problem for the OP to aquire a black powder firearm and the means to shoot it.

But, I agree with the above, a BP firearm is a poor self-defense weapon.

If the OP isn't sure whether or not he can legally purchase a regulated firearm, about the only way to find out for sure is to buy one and do the background check, and answer all questions truthfully.

 

[sotxnoah]

In the state of Michigan trouble as a youth that left you a convicted felon will prohibit you from legally owning/possessing a black powder firearm. While the ATF does not consider black powder guns firearms, the state of Michigan does. You have to check the laws in the area you live in.

In Texas anything pre-1898 or a replica of that is not qualified as a firearm. Texas even allows someone with a felony conviction to own a modern firearm but only 5 years after completion of their sentence, so long as the firearms is possessed only in the home for self-defense, so no open/concealed carry and not even hunting with it. The latter state rule conflicts with federal law, but my understanding is if the exception were justly exercised by the person with the prior conviction it would not be reported for federal prosecution.

 

[64Springer]

The internet is not the place for questions that could land someone in Federal PYITA Prison.

Contact the Firearms Division in your state.

Write them a letter, be honest with them, and ask for a reply, hard copy letter, in writing.

 

[IanH]

Mostly questions for your lawyer, not an internet board. As was already answered, black powder substitutes are categorized the same as smokeless propellants, but that is mainly for transportation, handling, and storage. Transporting and storing black powder is different in that it is legally considered a "low explosive" and requires much more consideration. The explosive nature of real black powder is also why the BATFE legally restricts an individual from storing more than 50 pounds in one location. The regulations regarding that can be found on the ATF's website. I don't know if a felon can purchase smokeless or black powder, fireworks, or other explosives legally or not, again a question for your lawyer as there's been some stuff applicable to you happening in the U.S. Supreme Court which may be to your benefit. By the way, congratulations for getting your life straight and moving on.

 

[IanH]

64Springer, I gotta learn to type faster!

 

[64Springer]

Missed it by THAT much.

 

[sotxnoah]

Mostly questions for your lawyer, not an internet board. As was already answered, black powder substitutes are categorized the same as smokeless propellants, but that is mainly for transportation, handling, and storage. Transporting and storing black powder is different in that it is legally considered a "low explosive" and requires much more consideration. The explosive nature of real black powder is also why the BATFE legally restricts an individual from storing more than 50 pounds in one location. The regulations regarding that can be found on the ATF's website. I don't know if a felon can purchase smokeless or black powder, fireworks, or other explosives legally or not, again a question for your lawyer as there's been some stuff applicable to you happening in the U.S. Supreme Court which may be to your benefit. By the way, congratulations for getting your life straight and moving on.

Hey Ian thanks for the response. I’ll be researching now on what’s been going on with SCOTUS. Is there any reference you could share regarding those goings on?

 

[sotxnoah]

The internet is not the place for questions that could land someone in Federal PYITA Prison.

Contact the Firearms Division in your state.

Write them a letter, be honest with them, and ask for a reply, hard copy letter, in writing.

Solid advice, I think I will be doing that, thank you.

 

[leadhoarder]

I do not know anything about the laws but I remember watching a few videos like this on the subject a while back.

 

[64Springer]

The felons who watch these videos and take them as gospel are playing with fire.

Some gun laws are federal laws. Some gun laws are state laws. Some gun laws are county laws.

The only way any felon should carry anything that takes powder and projectile is if he or she contacted their authorities and got a stone cold, black and white, up or down letter of approval.

Watching YouTube to make these types of life altering choices is a really stupid thing to do.

 

[PastorB]

Oh, boy. The laws regarding black powder guns vary wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. My first point is I would not trust anything I heard on the internet, nor from the three legal scholars you work or shop with. GENERALLY speaking, a black powder firearm, while not considered a firearm under Federal law, IS considered a firearm under the vast majority of state laws. My home state considers a Red Ryder BB-gun to be a firearm, and for sure a black powder gun is. Our law reads that any device that propels a projectile, by any means, whether spring, air, powder, or any other propulsion method, is a firearm. Most states, with rare exception, have similar definitions. So while a prohibited person may be able to buy a BPF due to a lack of background check, if you are caught with one in MOST locales, you will absolutely do time. Secondly, your chance of being prosecuted is greatly determined by the political party and the agenda of law enforcement in your particular area. If you were to somehow eventually "win" in a legal proceeding, how much time will you spend in the "Greystone Motel" and how many thousands of dollars will you spend on attorneys before a prosecution is favorably resolved? These are real questions you need to ask yourself, and sadly, the real answer in most cases will be you had better not be in possession of a BPF if you have a criminal record. Another thing to consider is that many jurisdictions have a catch-all provision that states any tool you may use, knife, tazer, club, pepper spray, etc. for self-defense is considered a "dangerous weapon" when wielded by a previously convicted citizen. I am on your side Sotxnoah, but that includes telling the truth as i understand it about your situation. I believe in your right to self-defense, especially in today's violent society, but my personal beliefs are not relevant. I would seek competent legal advice about the law in your area of residence, and even if permissible in your area, traveling to a other geographic area will bring on an entirely new set of laws. Bottom line, are you going to jeopardize your freedom, and separation from loved ones for years, to information gleaned from the "brightest minds" on-line in internet forums? Spend money on a knowledgeable attorney, one who is intimately familiar with laws in your area, and if you then choose to carry a BPF, pray you never have to use it.

Last thought, the ATF has an ever increasing list of BPF that are now considered as firearms, because they are "readily converted" to fire modern fixed ammunition. This would include almost every cap and ball revolver due to the proliferation of conversion cylinders. The fact that a person does not have the conversion cylinder or ammunition is moot, just that the BPF is easily converted is enough to land you on the wrong side of the law. Think critically for yourself, considering your unique set of circumstances. Finally, do not rely on my advice, nor that of anyone else who may have an opinion that is not based upon the skills acquired thru law school and actual legal practice. God Bless, wish I could be more positive about your dilemna.

 

[Dark Angel]

Hi everyone, I’m new to black powder arms and have been reading a lot but wondering what takes others might have on this issue.
In Texas and federal law re: black powder arms the laws dont specify what these arms can or can’t be used for. However, when reading federal law it states black powder can be purchased in qty of <50 lbs “intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms.” What I’m wondering is -
Does Pyrodex fall under “explosives”?
Also what do y’all think about self-defense falling under the category of “cultural”? (Considering the US, and Texas specifically, do have a long tradition of regarding self-defense as a right.) They might not get someone on using a black powder arm for self defense based on a strict reading, but it sounds like the law could be used to interpret that the powder was not used consistent with one of the intended purposes as written above.
I wonder because, well, I made some dumbs choices when I was younger, but I’m an adult now with a family and working in a helping field. I won’t get a regular firearm because I don’t want to be on the wrong side of the law, but I do have a lot to protect at home, namely my family.
Thanks for any replies and God bless from S.TX

The way I understand it is, Pyrodex is basically an altered form black powder, being treated chemically or otherwise in such a way that renders it less prone to accidental discharge than normal BP. Still an explosive? I too live in Texas, The point, at least for me is moot in that I shoot a C&B revolver, so I don't need to keep massive? amounts of BP around. You might check local ordinances as these can vary from town to town. Lived once, in an area that the LEOs went bat manure crazy over the fact that I kept 1 pound of the stuff in my domicile. Just a suggestion if you use either and plan to store large amounts, buy one of those heavy-duty surplus military ammo containers for storage. They are made of heavy gauge steel and are designed to contain explosions.

 

[64Springer]

Oh, boy. The laws regarding black powder guns vary wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. My first point is I would not trust anything I heard on the internet, nor from the three legal scholars you work or shop with. GENERALLY speaking, a black powder firearm, while not considered a firearm under Federal law, IS considered a firearm under the vast majority of state laws. My home state considers a Red Ryder BB-gun to be a firearm, and for sure a black powder gun is. Our law reads that any device that propels a projectile, by any means, whether spring, air, powder, or any other propulsion method, is a firearm. Most states, with rare exception, have similar definitions. So while a prohibited person may be able to buy a BPF due to a lack of background check, if you are caught with one in MOST locales, you will absolutely do time. Secondly, your chance of being prosecuted is greatly determined by the political party and the agenda of law enforcement in your particular area. If you were to somehow eventually "win" in a legal proceeding, how much time will you spend in the "Greystone Motel" and how many thousands of dollars will you spend on attorneys before a prosecution is favorably resolved? These are real questions you need to ask yourself, and sadly, the real answer in most cases will be you had better not be in possession of a BPF if you have a criminal record. Another thing to consider is that many jurisdictions have a catch-all provision that states any tool you may use, knife, tazer, club, pepper spray, etc. for self-defense is considered a "dangerous weapon" when wielded by a previously convicted citizen. I am on your side Sotxnoah, but that includes telling the truth as i understand it about your situation. I believe in your right to self-defense, especially in today's violent society, but my personal beliefs are not relevant. I would seek competent legal advice about the law in your area of residence, and even if permissible in your area, traveling to a other geographic area will bring on an entirely new set of laws. Bottom line, are you going to jeopardize your freedom, and separation from loved ones for years, to information gleaned from the "brightest minds" on-line in internet forums? Spend money on a knowledgeable attorney, one who is intimately familiar with laws in your area, and if you then choose to carry a BPF, pray you never have to use it.

Last thought, the ATF has an ever increasing list of BPF that are now considered as firearms, because they are "readily converted" to fire modern fixed ammunition. This would include almost every cap and ball revolver due to the proliferation of conversion cylinders. The fact that a person does not have the conversion cylinder or ammunition is moot, just that the BPF is easily converted is enough to land you on the wrong side of the law. Think critically for yourself, considering your unique set of circumstances. Finally, do not rely on my advice, nor that of anyone else who may have an opinion that is not based upon the skills acquired thru law school and actual legal practice. God Bless, wish I could be more positive about your dilemna.

Bu bu but black powder revolvers aren't considered firearms.

And I can carry them concealed anytime and anywhere I want to.

SCOTUS and Bruen said so.

 

[Frontier's]

I know in Colorado, felons can not own BP arms.

 

[64Springer]

I know in Colorado, felons can not own BP arms.

Bu bu but Bruen.

 

[earlwb]

Well several years ago a number of guys who had been convicted of a felony used the Texas law loophole to carry loaded cap and ball pistols. But a number of them got into trouble though with the police by sticking their noses in where they didn’t belong. But these guys have’nt been in the news lately. So there is no sense in making things worse. You really need to check with a lawyer in your state about this. They could have changed the laws by now. Plus with Biden’s hostile anti-gun stand you don’t want the Feds to get involved.

Texas law says if you met their criteria you could own a gun and keep it on your property and home but that is about it. But the Feds would have you permanently on their prohibited person list so you would never get approved to buy a modern gun. A antique gun does fall outside the Fed and state laws, so theoretically you could own them but that could change in a moment’s notice. Worse is if you convert a cap and ball revolver into a cartridge gun as the law is vague on that.

Yes you really need to talk with a real lawyer about it,

https://www.craiggreeninglaw.com/can-convicted-felons-have-guns-in-texas-a-guide-to-firearms-laws/

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hi everyone, I’m new to black powder arms and have been reading a lot but wondering what takes others might have on this issue.
In Texas and federal law re: black powder arms the laws dont specify what these arms can or can’t be used for. However, when reading federal law it states black powder can be purchased in qty of <50 lbs “intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms.” What I’m wondering is -
Does Pyrodex fall under “explosives”?
Also what do y’all think about self-defense falling under the category of “cultural”? (Considering the US, and Texas specifically, do have a long tradition of regarding self-defense as a right.) They might not get someone on using a black powder arm for self defense based on a strict reading, but it sounds like the law could be used to interpret that the powder was not used consistent with one of the intended purposes as written above.
I wonder because, well, I made some dumbs choices when I was younger, but I’m an adult now with a family and working in a helping field. I won’t get a regular firearm because I don’t want to be on the wrong side of the law, but I do have a lot to protect at home, namely my family.
Thanks for any replies and God bless from S.TX

So first, Pyrodex was invented because it is not an explosive. It was to allow Mom & Pop muzzle loader shops a propellant that did not require major containment storage areas in case the powder went up...,

Black powder at one time, back in the 1990's and prior, was the option of those that had run afoul of the law and could not own a modern firearm. I had several such hunter-customers when I worked part-time at the LGS. BEWARE, the law is based on how long one could be incarcerated, NOT ON THE VIOLATION BEING A "FELONY". There are a BUNCH of laws out there that are misdemeanors and common law that have possible penalties of more than 24 months in jail and they too will prohibit the convict from owning a modern firearm, or possession of one. The Feds changed the law, and now include "components" as prohibited from possession for many convicted of crime. So REGARDLESS of use, depending on the judge, having the bullets may = having a component and jam-you-up. Bruen Decision not withstanding. YOUR STATE may have different laws too, so might your county or town.

In Texas anything pre-1898 or a replica of that is not qualified as a firearm. Texas even allows someone with a felony conviction to own a modern firearm but only 5 years after completion of their sentence, so long as the firearms is possessed only in the home for self-defense, so no open/concealed carry and not even hunting with it. The latter state rule conflicts with federal law, but my understanding is if the exception were justly exercised by the person with the prior conviction it would not be reported for federal prosecution.

BEWARE, check the definition..., most states say a replica of a firearm made before 1898, that is not easily converted to use readily available ammunition..., or uses readily available ammunition, so it's MORE than the date of manufacture. Prior to Cowboy Action Shooting, there were no conversion cylinders being made, plus old revolvers made AFTER 1898 using odd cartridges like .38 Long Colt, .41 short and long Colt, .44 Colt, .44 Russian, and .45 Scofield were all "legal"... tough if not impossible to find ammo... NOW however, with drop-in cylinders and these old cartridges being made for CAS..., those old revolvers, replicas, and anything taking a conversion cylinder now, likely falls into the prohibited category.

As for being "reported" to the Feds..., that's not how it always works. A Federal Prosecutor, an Assistant United States Attorney (AUSA) can swoop in and take a case that they claim falls under Fed jurisdiction, or not, the decision is up to them. Nothing the locals can say about it, so long as a verdict in the case hasn't been rendered yet.

LD