How do you attach staples to a powder horn body

[ZUG]

I would like to use staples on a powder horn to attach my straps to. Never used staples before on the horn itself. I understand the concept but how do you clinch the staple inside the horn that is near the spout of the horn? Not much room to get a tool in the spout end opening to wack the staple feet to clinch over and hold the staple from coming loose. Also do you seal the staple hole to make it waterproof after the staple is in place?

 

[MSW]

oK ... I confess ... I did it ... I drilled holes just a tad larger that the piece of coathanger (use the nice thick ones, not the scrawny el- cheap- o brand). then I checked that the bent coathanger fit, and then I

gulp

I put a dab of epoxy in the holes and crammed the coathanger staple in there before anyone could see what I was doing ... it was just a tiny bit of clear epoxy and it kept the coathanger in place and sealed the hole and made everything look as though it was HC/PC.

but I know it's not.... I feel like such a fraud ...

(on the upside, my powder horns are still airtight)

 

[ZUG]

Honesty is the best policy :haha: -- not to worry I will not tell anyone :grin: . I would do this also but the wall thickness where the staple will go is only about 0.070" thick and not thick enough for the staple leg & epoxy to get a good hold on - it needs to be clinched on the inside then as an added insurance some epoxy will help. I might have to use a different method to attach the strap :hmm: .

 

[CrackStock]

My inclination is to use a period process.

I have drilled the hole very snug and simply twisted it tightly into the hole. A length of drill rod was slid into the powder hole to drive and bend the wire over from inside the horn. I had a firm and watertight attachment - as judged at Dixon's. There was no need for any "faux hide glue" or "modern pine pitch resin" to be mixed, stained and pressed into the hole.

If the center powder hole is not straight for easy access - as is so commonly the case, I have used a bit of brass rod with a slight bend to it in driving the staple ends over to lock them down from inside. Very specialized custom made tool - rivals my horn neck cutting gauge for complexity...

A side note, (which can be seen in the photos) I do not hang the horn by the wire bail, but rather tie the strap around the neck and through the wire bail which simply serves to hold the strap in its proper place on the neck. The wire is then not working nearly as hard. I have been told that this was correct and it makes sense. If you look at originals, most of the wires are pretty thin and it is doubtful that these held the weight of full horns.

CS

 

[ZUG]

VERY NICE CrackStock --- I like it VERY much and this is be my best option for my horn . Thanks to all for all the ideas - great help :thumbsup: . I make very few horns and the ones I do make are very simple & plain.

 

[crockett]

I think Ron Cadle (hope I spelled that correctly)did an article in Muzzle Blasts about 8 years ago. He said most folks use too heavy a staple. the originals were of smaller gauge, the holes went through the horn and then the ends of the staples were twisted together inside the horn so you couldn't pull them out. Before rushing out and doing it that way maybe some horn experts can elaborate a bit better on the method.

 

[CrackStock]

Roland Cadle is one very good source for info and horns. The two horns shown above were purchased directly from Roland at Dixon's a few years back.

However, I as I recall the source of my remarks was from John Proud and Art DeCamp. We use a thin wire - thinner than the common bailing wire found in most hardware stores.

People really should make a trip to Dixon's. There are so many good people who freely share great info and they are also sources of materials, tools and goods. Greatest free show in the ML world!

CS

 

[omarick1948]

Traditionally, SOME of the old original powder horns had their staple tips crimped over, but not all. I don't go with what a few people preach, that you have to do something "this way or that way" because someone said so. We are in a time of super fast communications and media, so a lot of folks believe everything that they hear. Luckily in personally examining a few original powder horns that were in less than perfect sound condition. I have never examined one that had its staples crimped over on the inside. I'm not saying that there are not examples, but I haven't seen any.

Not everybody in the 18th and 19th centuries were expert horn makers or had all of the fast communication between one another to always compare notes and for the most part they looked at a powder horn as a tool of life. I believe that most people who made powder horns or anything of the period, did so for practical reasons and to the best of their ability.

Remember, that we are talking about the common farmer, townsman and craftsman. I have bent-over or crimped the staple over on horns, but with today's modern adhesives and epoxies of today are just as good, if not better, than the crimping method. Besides, who really knows or cares, as long as you can't see it in detection. IF I wanted to be absolutely PC/HC, I would walk the 1100 plus miles to Dixon's from my home.

Seriously, a person shouldn't loose sleep over not crimping that staple!...Horn making has been a serious hobby for me for close on to 40 years now and almost 600 powder horns later, I can't remember anyone bringing back a spout stapled horn that had pulled out went epoxied. I have had a few come back with leaking problems from shrinkage around the crimped horn staples though!

The jury is still out about if the throat staple is used for a hanger or strap keeper guide. I suggest it for a the strap keeper, rather than a strap hanger, but that is not my advise, but only opinion.

Bottom line..BOTH WAYS ARE HISTORCALLY CORRECT!

Rick

 

[crockett]

Well,mea culpa time. I've always just epoxy glued in staples. The first were small nails/brads bent to shape and then I was told they were too heavy. On the throat staple- I originally attached the strap to the staple and then someone told me the strap should go through the staple and around the throat- the purpose of the staple was to rotate the horn so it hung correctly.
Chances are if I didn't know these things they probably didn't years ago- probably all methods are pc.
I am always interested in learning and any information from folks that have handled/seen originals is important. On the originals, the staples were just driven in to holes?

 

[CrackStock]

I think that we agree that there were many methods of making horns then and are many ways to make them now. This makes the working of horns more interesting and justifies having a collection to demonstrate these types. At least, this is what I tell my wife.

There are different opinions regarding how the majority of powderhorns were produced in the ML period of history. Some think that the average woodsman made his own and this may be true in some areas and time periods. Plugs fitted to the unrounded butt are found and few (if any) shops would do this as it is labor intensive to shape a wooden plug to an irregular horn compared to reshaping the horn and then lathe turning both. There are also complex horns which no woodsman could have accomplished with his files, knife and scrapers. Then there are significant records regarding shops turning horns out (pun intended) in great numbers.

So we see two fundamentally different powderhorn producers using very different processes. The best advice is to study what you are trying to reproduce in a good faith manner and honestly communicate what it is and how it was done.

My particular interest is in recreating the manufactured horns of the various times and regions which compliment the guns made in those times and regions. I like to see a correct gun and horn as a matched set.

These particular horns generally followed set patterns of production. They were done in stages - sort of an early version of assembly line production, but not necessarily with interchangeable parts. Many still have the production numbers inside to keep the components matched up together. (My horn making buddy does his in batches and uses a similar numbering system ”“ partly out of tradition and partly because it helps in keeping the items together in a confusing environment where numerous horns are being made at one time.

Having seen original horns disassembled, there are often bent staples in the butt plugs and bodies. Sometimes there are also materials sealing the holes and sometimes not. I have no problem sealing the holes with period or modern materials. The horns should work properly and as you say, if it is not visible, it does not really harm anything. After all, this is intended to be a functional container for outdoor carry of black powder. We can do pitch, hide glue, wax, marine glue or epoxy as deemed advantageous. You decide for yourself or ask your customer. How far do you want to go in the period correct realm? I am not walking to Dixon's, but I might use bees' wax or hide glue as my insurance for making a horn water-tight. I have also used epoxy. You would not know the difference unless you asked or it had been previously discussed.

Far from simply relying upon modern electronic media, I have read and referred to books. I also examined originals from a couple of collections. My favorite source is Art DeCamp's Pennsylvania Horns of the Trade (Screw Tip Powder Horns and Their Architecture.) I have also visited his exhibit to see the displays and discussed these horns with him. My horn making buddy has taken Art's classes in making the Philly applied collar internal screw tip and Lancaster screw tip horns, so I am learning from both of them.

A momentary break from the reading:
Here is the neck of an Adams County horn that I did a while back and use for display at events:

The tip was patterned from one in Art's book.
The butt is a blend of a copy of an original in a collection here in Mississippi with some additions from Art's book. It is helpful to make a reproduction while holding an original of that type, but the book is so good that it is almost as helpful.

The wire staple in the butt on the original was straight as suggested above. It did not come through the wood and was therefore not bent over. But I chose to bend my recreation because I thinned the butt to lessen weight and increase the volume of powder that the horn can carry. Not completely correct, but it does not show...

The wire in the neck of that original was not visible, but the wire was so thin that I bent my copy over and sealed it with carpenter's glue inside to make sure that it would not come loose or leak. The neck was so thin that I cannot imagine the staple of the original not bent over.
The Philly collar screw tips were held in place by wire which could be a rounded arc or a sloping angle and I was told to bend them over inside to prevent them backing out. There is not a lot of stress on them, so I could see either way on this. I reread Art's book, but could not find this item addressed specifically. The opening is so wide that this can be seen on most - will need to look when I am back in the shop. There are several originals there. Styles with smaller openings or deep bends are not as easily visible.

I think that the original discussion involved the staple in the neck area. I am not certain of the data involving percentages of horns bent over or simply driven into the horn. In seeing my buddy's collection and at Dixon's, I have seen both ways, so the comment of making it how you like might apply in many cases.

As to the wooden butts, several originals were clearly bent over inside the wood butts when the wood was thin - Art's book has examples where they were bent over. EG - Page 254. As you mention, some were straight. Page 254 is simply driven into the wood which is quite thick. The technique of turning seems to drive this choice. Some styles were not chucked on an internal pillar at the inside so the wood remains thick. This would require a very long wire, so it relied upon the straight staples to hold.

In some styles where the inside of the wood plug was thinner and/or an eyelet was used, the ends of the wire were pushed through the same hole and twisted together before being "clinched" (As Art terms this bending) on the inside. Art had this on his table the year before last.

Here is a Philly with a wire eyelet which uses one hole to secure the bail. It is correctly secured internally by a bending or it would surely come loose in use. It is also sealed since to two wires would not provide a watertight fit.

Art teaches this and has examples to demonstrate how the turning was done and the wire was twisted.

In short, there are many ways to do a correct horn, but the actual practices of original shop produced horns of the trade are a bit less flexible. They follow the practices of the particular shop so you would do well to study if your intent is to reproduce these.

I strongly suggest this book for any people who wish to make the shop built horns of the era. It is quite a good reference. Art's classes are also well regarded. I just need to retire so I have the time to attend!

CS

 

[CrackStock]

Well,mea culpa time. I've always just epoxy glued in staples. The first were small nails/brads bent to shape and then I was told they were too heavy. On the throat staple- I originally attached the strap to the staple and then someone told me the strap should go through the staple and around the throat- the purpose of the staple was to rotate the horn so it hung correctly.
Chances are if I didn't know these things they probably didn't years ago- probably all methods are pc.
I am always interested in learning and any information from folks that have handled/seen originals is important. On the originals, the staples were just driven in to holes?

No mea culpa needed from my point of view.

As to the staples/wire bails, there is dispute among horners about the method of attaching the strap. Most go with the opinion that tying around the neck and simply going through the staple keeps the strap from working its way off the horn and can also hold the horn in a desired position.

There are also varied perceptions regarding the bending over of the staples. Some say always done and others never. Both are wrong in that there are examples both ways. For me, the question involves specific schools or areas of a particular style of horn production. I try to see what was done in most examples of that style.

For example, I became interested in reproducing an Adams County horn and learned that these will have
three nails securing the butt; the screw tip version will not serve as a powder funnel and will have specific style elements - such as the three tip bands; and the butt staple will likely not be bent over as the butt plug is thick. These do not have the decorative lines turned into the horn butt from when the butt was cut square as the somewhat similar York will. From what I have seen, the neck staple is not placed to accommodate tying the strap directly to it.

See, there are proper elements to some horn styles - just as there are to the guns of the area.

This particular style seems to be pretty uniform, so I worked to get the important elements correct.

You might be able to see that this was scraped rather than sanded or polished. I wanted that method to show slightly as it does on some originals.

But you can study as deeply as suits your interest. Also apply as much of it as you desire.

I simply point out as much info regarding original horns and processes and also communicate the modern methods and materials to people so that learning takes place and honest communication also takes place. Make them as pleases you and the person receiving the horn.

Some staples were simply driven in and some were bent over and some clearly had some method of sealing the holes.

There is a lot of debate about various processes. One guy on YouTube would have you believe that any glue on the butt plug will make a bomb of your horn while others will argue that this is bunk. They point to horns with a huge amount of nails, tacks and other attachments in the butt. Lots of opinions are floating out on the internet.

My sole interest is in presenting a lot of info for your consideration. I travel long distances to present horns and discuss their manufacture at events. This is a lot easier and less expensive method of presenting. Besides, I learn from the responses.

Use it all as pleases you. If you get enjoyment out of looking at some of it or make a better horn, then I am quite happy.

CS

 

[crockett]

Thanks for all the good information. I'm going to get that book. It was my understanding that the great majority of powder horns were made in small shops and as you said- several workers with each doing one aspect- such as one person making the tips.
On the base plug- I thought some originals were concaved on the inside to save weigh and add space.

 

[CrackStock]

We agree on all of those points.

 

[kaintuck]

using TOTW staples, I just drill the hole smaller than the staple diameter, then hammer it in~~~I wanted to remove one once.....and the staple bent all to pieces, never did get it to come out......the horn held it!!!

marc n tomtom

 

[CrackStock]

Just cut thin bailing wire and cold forge it along the length. Then flat to widen the ends a bit and you have a staple for free. Nothing against Track, but some of their items are puzzling to me. The twist is pretty, but I have not seen that on any originals. Has anyone else seen that on an original? Would be glad to know.

CS

 

[omarick1948]

I kind a think that someone at TOW took metal shop in high school and came up with them. Never seen them on any old original powder horns and if you think a little about it, that twist is covered up when the strap is attached and probably is abrasive a little on the strap rubbing on that staple.

 

[CrackStock]

I kind a think that someone at TOW took metal shop in high school and came up with them. Never seen them on any old original powder horns and if you think a little about it, that twist is covered up when the strap is attached and probably is abrasive a little on the strap rubbing on that staple.

We are exactly on the same page with this one.

Cold forged straight "staples" are my method to use and suggest. The price is right and the look is correct. We had a huge roll of very old thin wire at an old farm which is now a hunting camp. It would allow us to cold hammer it pretty well for staples and also as nails to lock the plugs in. We could even cold forge heads on the nails in a vise.

Have not been able to find the same size and workable qualities anywhere else.

Do you use bailing wire or do you start with some other wire?

CS