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Ryanlpuckett

40 Cal
Joined
May 22, 2023
Messages
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I am awaiting the arrival of an Investarm, Hawken Gemmer Kit. What i have read, suggests that this was one of the more accurate production kits available. The robust Iron furniture is probably what sold me, knowing the amount of work required to re-work the stock, well the iron is what sold me lol. I do wish that it had a patch box, but oh well. Anywho, I would like to make it as accurate as possible, and am looking for source material to work the stock to as accurate as to original as possible. Does anyone know of templates, drawings or any other resources for these rifles? With work one can get close, with dedication and a set of files and a shoulder replacement one can attain perfection. I see these kits out of the box as flawed "historically" speaking, but manufacturers were not striving for perfection at these price points, however, they offer a good starting point.

Thank you guys!!
 
What John Gemmer built was based on the architecture of the S. Hawken Plains and California rifles of the late 1860's. Using the S. Hawken plans as a guide to the parts you will have in the Investarms Gemmer kit is a good basis. I have seen one Gemmer Rifle. The family lore has it made just after the late unpleasantness between the states about 1865. The caliber is 45 and was carried on several hunting trips on the plains. Size wise, it is about 7/8 of an S. Hawken plains rifle. It has the same iron mountings, two wedges, double set triggers and the late English style percussion lock. The hooked breech has the snail percussion nipple seat and will have the chambered breech. The owner wisely won't let us do a thorough inspection and measurement of the rifle. @Ryanlpuckett, come to the Hawken classic in August and view the display of Hawken rifles. There are likely to be a few of the Gemmer breech loading rifles. The Hawken rifle that will be available at the range for shooting will be very similar to a Gemmer rifle. Gemmer used the S. Hawken stamp on many of the rifles he built. He did have the rights to the stamp even though Sam wasn't altogether pleased with that. We, the members of the J. P. Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club, believe that he built most of the S. Hawken stamped rifles when Sam owned the Hawken Shop.

Ryan, you won't go wrong using the S. Hawken plans.
 
The rifle is pretty accurate as it is to the period it represents which is a post 1860 plains rifle of which there were many variations available from different makers to be sold to the market created by the movement west.

It's a long reach to make it representative of the classic Hawken rifles.

Not a Hawken snob and not peeing in your Wheaties. It's just what it is.
 
What John Gemmer built was based on the architecture of the S. Hawken Plains and California rifles of the late 1860's. Using the S. Hawken plans as a guide to the parts you will have in the Investarms Gemmer kit is a good basis. I have seen one Gemmer Rifle. The family lore has it made just after the late unpleasantness between the states about 1865. The caliber is 45 and was carried on several hunting trips on the plains. Size wise, it is about 7/8 of an S. Hawken plains rifle. It has the same iron mountings, two wedges, double set triggers and the late English style percussion lock. The hooked breech has the snail percussion nipple seat and will have the chambered breech. The owner wisely won't let us do a thorough inspection and measurement of the rifle. @Ryanlpuckett, come to the Hawken classic in August and view the display of Hawken rifles. There are likely to be a few of the Gemmer breech loading rifles. The Hawken rifle that will be available at the range for shooting will be very similar to a Gemmer rifle. Gemmer used the S. Hawken stamp on many of the rifles he built. He did have the rights to the stamp even though Sam wasn't altogether pleased with that. We, the members of the J. P. Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club, believe that he built most of the S. Hawken stamped rifles when Sam owned the Hawken Shop.

Ryan, you won't go wrong using the S. Hawken plans.
Thank you for the information! I may just make my way over to the meet! I will definitely check the plans set out, I never even thought to check with TOW, and they are pretty much my go to for everything Muzzleloading.

Thank you again for all, and the history tidbit!

Best

Ryan
 
@Ryanlpuckett, one observation. The Investarms rifle will have a straight barrel. The Hawken and Gemmer rifles will have a tapered barrel. It will be thicker at the breech and have a straight taper a bit to the muzzle. You just can't create the tapered barrel with the Investarms barrel. Even in a half stock, there could be a noticeable gap at the transition between the stock and the under rib. For what you are making, let's not make the tapered barrel a big deal. You should be able to come close to the look of a Gemmer Rifle.
 
The rifle is pretty accurate as it is to the period it represents which is a post 1860 plains rifle of which there were many variations available from different makers to be sold to the market created by the movement west.

It's a long reach to make it representative of the classic Hawken rifles.

Not a Hawken snob and not peeing in your Wheaties. It's just what it is.
No offense taken sir, you are correct, I just want to get as close as possible to feel and appearance. There are some differences i have come across in respect to barrel geometry, strait vs tapered as another gentle informed me about here in the thread, some detail work in the furniture and the like. I would just like to get pretty close 😉

Now if you excuse me, I need to dry out my Wheaties 😆

Best

Ryan
 
I have not seen the Gremmer kit but if it's anything like the plains rifle they made for Lyman you'll have to remove a lot of wood to make it look like it should.

I have not seen the Gremmer kit but if it's anything like the plains rifle they made for Lyman you'll have to remove a lot of wood to make it look like it should.
Yes, I have come about this in several threads and YouTube videos. Already shopping for files, and sanding pads. Going to load up on some icyhot too 😆

Best

Ryan
 
I am thinking about going for a newish looking rifle, blued barrel, brightened metal work. Also, am planning to put in a inlay or two. Debating brass or silver. TOW has a nice rear sight kit, currently in deliberations. Need to check the dovetails in the barrel for size, and think if spending 50.00 is realistic. Just looks nice. A ladder peep sight may be the way to go, but dont think these were generally installed on the Hawken. Would you guys keep the cooking oil, lol case Bluing, strip it and leave a natural metal finish? I kinda like the finish on the parts, a dulled patina, have not held these personally, have only seen video and stills. Would you guys just buff to a mirror and let age work magic? Or apply some form of Bluing or protectant?

Best

Ryan
 
@Ryanlpuckett ,

You have taken on an interesting project. In the first post, I believe you indicated you wanted to make your rifle "as accurate to the original as possible." There was an article about doing exactly that with the Investarms Gemmer Hawken in the September 2022 issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine, written and illustrated by Hawken authority and master builder, Bob Woodfill. The text was written in pretty general terms, but the photos give a good idea of what he was trying to do. Mr. Woodfill's goal was "...to see if one of the entry level Hawken kits could be assembled to resemble an authentic Hawken rifle..."

He recommended several things, most involving straightforward modifications of the stock. First, the kit rifle has a convex "fish belly" profile in the toe line, extending from the toe of the buttplate to the rear of the trigger guard. That had to be straightened out. One other feature of these rifles is that the barrel key escutcheons are inletted too deep. Many people shave the wood down to be flush with them, but Mr. Woodfill believed this would make the forend too thin. On his build, he filled the mortises with epoxy to elevate the inlays to the level of the wood. Next, the cheek piece needed re-shaping, and the mouldings around the lock and on the side opposite the lock had to be carved down to make them narrower and better defined. This is an area where many builders give insufficient attention. You have to study some originals to see what they did. This is the lock area of a Lyman Great Plains Rifle (essentially the same as an Investarms Gemmer):

GPR Lock & Snail.jpg
Compare that to the moulding around the lock of an original J&S Hawken:

J&S Hawken 2.3.png


This is the Investarms Gemmer Hawken that Mr. Woodfill assembled and finished:

2023-07-05.png

The devil really is in the details.

I don't know what kind of wood they used in the Investarms Gemmer. I thought it was walnut, but if it is, it is the palest walnut I've seen. Mr. Woodfill used Homer Dangler's dark brown stain and TruOil to give it more of a walnut color.

Mr. Woodfill rust blued the barrel of his rifle, which is authentic to the originals. On the originals, the hardware or mountings (lockplate, hammer, buttplate, toe plate, triggerguard, trigger plate, triggers, and nosecap) were color case-hardened. Mr. Woodfill "tinted" these parts in his kit to simulate the color case finish, but he didn't say exactly how he did it.

The rifle Mr. Woodfill assembled and finished still differed from an original Hawken in some details, but he got about as close as you can get with that particular kit.

As for the name, I believe Investarms simply used "Gemmer" for marketing. As noted in posts above, J.P. Gemmer did work for the Hawken shop in St. Louis, and eventually took it over, continuing to build rifles in the Hawken style. However, the Investarms Gemmer is not an exact replica of his rifles. It's just a name. However, with some carving and careful finish, you kit rifle can be improved considerably.

You mentioned a patchbox. If you are willing to tackle some inlay, you might consider installing a patchbox yourself. The Hawken Shop sells an exact replica of an original Hawken patchbox, and you can't do any better than that. Here is a link: Hawken Shop Patchbox

There is an authentic Hawken adjustable rear sight known to exist, but I don't know of any originals with a ladder peep sight. In my opinion, it would be out of place, but this is your rifle and you should build it the way you want.

There were some fancy Hawken rifles made to order, but most were very plain. Their beauty is in the lines and the workmanship. If you are determined to add some color, maybe German silver wedge plates and a poured pewter nosecap, but I would be wary of dressing the rifle up with inlays... A lot can go wrong.

I would recommend studying clear images of original rifles. You can find tons of them online with a simple Google search. Look at the overall outline and geometry, and how the carving is done. Detail carving on the wood of your kit rifle will not cost anything but time, and will probably be the single, best thing you can do to "authenticate" this kit.

Good luck with it! Please keep us informed of your progress.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Good luck with your project!
 
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Yes, I have come about this in several threads and YouTube videos. Already shopping for files, and sanding pads. Going to load up on some icyhot too 😆

Best

Ryan
Just take your time and you won't need the icy hot, I've found that sometimes you just need to walk away from a project for a while. It took me a long time to get that through my head I'm a rather impatient person.
 
I would be leery of using the sanding pads. It's too easy to lose the definition of the lock panels when sanding. If you do decide to sand get the sanding grips available from Rockler. These will help to maintain the definition the lock panels and keep the flats smoother. And these are on sale now.
https://www.rockler.com/rockler-contour-sanding-grips-2https://www.rockler.com/rockler-angled-contour-sanding-grips
I also recommend getting some cabinet scrapers. These are far better at controlling wood removal than files and leave a smoother surface.
https://www.rockler.com/cabinet-scraper-set
 
I am awaiting the arrival of an Investarm, Hawken Gemmer Kit. What i have read, suggests that this was one of the more accurate production kits available. The robust Iron furniture is probably what sold me, knowing the amount of work required to re-work the stock, well the iron is what sold me lol. I do wish that it had a patch box, but oh well. Anywho, I would like to make it as accurate as possible, and am looking for source material to work the stock to as accurate as to original as possible. Does anyone know of templates, drawings or any other resources for these rifles? With work one can get close, with dedication and a set of files and a shoulder replacement one can attain perfection. I see these kits out of the box as flawed "historically" speaking, but manufacturers were not striving for perfection at these price points, however, they offer a good starting point.

Thank you guys!!
The Hawken Shop has a full scale drawing available. Thehawkenshop.com.
 
I'll add that if you get cabinet scrapers, get the thinner ones so that they're easy to bend to conform to curves. I got thicker ones and wish I had the thin ones
 
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