Guns of "For Trade and Treaty"

[Flint62Smoothie]

No, you need to call them ...

 

[Nor'Easter]

These are for others following this thread, not those are 'already in the know.'

A lot of people don't realize how mobile the French and their Indian allies were.

Or how early the Natives fully embraced firearms and European arms in general.

 

[rickystl]

REF: Post #38 and #41

As Flint notes, going the Dutch route makes sense. also. Note in Post #38 the slow transition of the lock style in the transition towards the French style flintlock. Yes, one of the Day's guns would be a good choice for Mid-17th Century as noted. But note: No French version.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is the English Fishtail from Leonard Day for Mid-17th Century. The lock is a later transition from the English snaphaunce lock. His guns are built very well.

Rick

 

[Nor'Easter]

What are people's experiences with horizontal sears? Can they be made safe and have a good trigger? I've seen some designs that look like they would have a satisfactory pull-off / break and still be safe. But a lot of them seem like they would have to have a long and heavy trigger to be safe.

 

[Nor'Easter]

It's funny you bring up the developmental history of the firing mechanisms. And you are correct that there was a great deal of development going on as well as significant design overlap. I have found that part (the firing mechanism) of the build to be the least difficult decision. There are tons of historical artifacts and research on the mechanisms. Even barrel profiles are reasonably known and understood.

The real 'dilemma' is in the stock design. Stock design was as much in flux as the locks themselves. That is what actually started me down this path, the question: "What is the earliest longarm design that could be comfortably shoulder fired by a modern shooter?" And knowing the extent of the history of Maine and Eastern Canadian Natives with the Europeans: "What is the earliest longarm and pistol that could have found its way onto the watershed of the Saint John River?"

I have a personal interest in all this. My farm lies 1/2 mile from the US / Canadian line. The brook that runs on two sides of my farm proceeds 3 miles and empties into the Saint John River. The brook's watercourse is teaming with beaver, moose, bear, fisher, martin, bobcat and lynx. In 1607 Father Lebrun planted a cross on Mars Hill Mountain, which I can see when I look out my window. St. Croix Island (1604) lies 105 miles to the south/south west. The mouth of the Saint John River lies 125 miles to the south/southeast. I don't remember where I copied this from, but it gives a sense of the happenings in my neck of the woods and when.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Hmmmmm ... I don't know the Author of that book cited, but me thinks they used the wrong term ... LOL!

First off, and most importantly , they totally ignored if not MISSED the real progression of early arms ... read: 'fire locks' ... from matchlock to wheellock to snaphaunce to English lock and finally to the 'true' French-type Flintlock as we know it to be today. The snaphance dominated the New England gun market until it fell out of favor in the middle of the 17th Century, per Arming the American Indian (Russel 2005). In scholarly articles such as the Doctorial Thesis from the William & Mary College titled Early English Firearms - A Re-Examination of the Evidence (B. Straube 1990), it was proven that the English only conceived of the English lock (also an improvement over the snaphaunce) in response to the French beginning to use and improve on what became the flintlock as we know it, with the one piece 'L-shaped frizzen and a vertical sear, per The Flintlock: Its Origin and Development. (Lenk 1939). The English lock dates to ~1650, for pieces found here (not Europe, where it was believed to have been developed post 1630.

Per the Thesis cited above, the latest evidence for the development of the French-type flintlock dates it to be no earlier than 1627, which is still a dubious and contested date, where some (as extensively discussed/debated in that document) believe the true date is ~1630. So while it is possibly true that the French had some flintlocks in use by the 1630s era in France ... it is highly doubtful that any 1625 black powdah arm was a true 'flintlock', but rather that of a 'firelock' of matchlock or snaphaunce or other ignition source.

Reasoning ... as surely the latest and greatest firearms ignition technology back then would NEVER have been sent out of France - never mind on a cheap trade gun to be bartered to the Natives way over in the New World! Even the Dutch, who ruled the world before the infamous age and battles between the English and French for almost 100+ years, didn't deploy flintlocks to its troops until the 1640s.

Moreover, remember that terminology evolved just as the arms did. The lock part now known by modern terminology as a frizzen has the historical reference as a hammer, steel, or battery; changing the cock to be called the hammer once percussion arms were fielded. The words snaphaunce and flintlock are used synonymously in historical documents "for any type of lock that operated by striking a flint against a steel, whatever the precise details of its mechanism" per Pollard's History of Firearms (Blair 1983).

History is darn wicked cool, but it is the looking back and trying to correctly interpret what was said/written versus what was really meant that is our challenge.

Here ... I fixed that page for you!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

That is what actually started me down this path, the question: "What is the earliest longarm design that could be comfortably shoulder fired by a modern shooter?"

Simple, I'd opt for a fish-tail stocked matchlock! Then again, I have a fish-tail stocked shaphaunce and English to choose from too, LOL!

 

[Nor'Easter]

No matchlocks, I plan on hunting with this one.
These have always caught my eye in the past:

 

[Nor'Easter]

Try this again. These are interesting.

 

[Sam squanch]

A nice wheel lock would have came here in the possession of a wealthy man who wanted to keep his scalp. Get a wheel lock, several servants, and dress in velvet……

 

[Nor'Easter]

Or a pirate! Dupont Grave' had a hand blown off. What are the chances he had a ?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

If going wheellock, put your order in now with Bolek M. from Poland; expect it to be north of $2K (especially if adding an external safety, as some originals had) and a year+ wait.

I do like the looks of the ones where a flintlock mechanism was placed onto a replacement lock plate that had the shape of the former wheellock lock assembly, so that the stock could be used again. I've seen variations of the same in matchlock, snaphaunce and flint versions!

 

[TobJohn]

Try this again. These are interesting.
View attachment 252548View attachment 252550

These are French wheellocks, so you will have to reexplore some mostly forgotten territory. The mainspring is attached to the stock, not the lock.

 

[Nor'Easter]

The examples I posted are attributed to French makers and considered French style. Two of the eight are wheellocks of the French style. Five are early (not true) flintlocks and one is a snap-lock or snaphaunce (I can't tell which).

"I do like the looks of the ones where a flintlock mechanism was placed onto a replacement lock plate that had the shape of the former wheellock lock assembly, so that the stock could be used again. I've seen variations of the same in matchlock, snaphaunce and flint versions!" - Flint62
Agree, and in addition to the stylistic qualities I feel it adds authenticity to a working gun.

 

[rickystl]

What are people's experiences with horizontal sears? Can they be made safe and have a good trigger? I've seen some designs that look like they would have a satisfactory pull-off / break and still be safe. But a lot of them seem like they would have to have a long and heavy trigger to be safe.

One of the first things you'll notice when firing with a single-notch horizontal sear lock is placing the hammer in the firing position will produce a single, softer "click", versus a louder, more positive double-click with a later flintlock. Along with the development of the one-piece frizzen and pan cover, a dog-style catch behind the hammer was added for safety. Later, with the development of the vertical sear, with it's mid safety notch on the tumbler, the dog catch became unnecessary.

As we can see by the various Posts in this Thread, there was a 20-30 years period in the Mid-17th Century where there was much change in both lock and stock design. It seems the one-piece frizzen and pan design really accelerated lock development from that point onwards. It's this experimental/transition period between the wheellock and true flintlock that some of us find so interesting.

Nor: See what a can of worms you opened by mentioning "French 1640/50 !!! LOL Honestly, this is a great Thread.

By the way, the guys in my network are not turning anything up that we don't already know.

Rick

 

[Nor'Easter]

Yes, I like these threads that wander and find their own natural course. Its like a public brain storming session! As long as people don't 'beat the dead horse', as some posters are prone to do in some threads.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Does anyone know of a work that discusses the development of the shoulder fired stock design - with images. Too many works discuss stock design changes without illistrations. Adequate for academic work but unsatisfactory for designing and building a firearm.

 

[TobJohn]

Does anyone know of a work that discusses the development of the shoulder fired stock design - with images. Too many works discuss stock design changes without illistrations. Adequate for academic work but unsatisfactory for designing and building a firearm.

I am curious about this too. Almost everything I’ve read/seen examining pre 1650 stock evolution makes generalizations that I find highly suspect

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

What are people's experiences with horizontal sears? Can they be made safe and have a good trigger?

Good trigger - My wheellock by Brian Anderson has a very positive 10-ounce trigger that I cannot set off by bumping the butt on the ground. But would I hunt with it? No way ... unless I wound it when I saw a deer. Off-Topic, but there are many historical accounts of 'wound' wheellocks NOT going off when the shooter wanted them to ...

Safe Trigger - If a hunting arm, I'd have an external safety added that would block the sear lever. Some horizontal sear arms, like a wheellock have a sear and a sear lever (that traps the wheel on wheelies with internal springs).

... and one is a snap-lock or snaphaunce (I can't tell which).

To me, a 'snap lock' would be a matchlock arm where the serpentine holding the matchcord was cocked against a spring and a sear bar holds it cocked. When the trigger is pulled it snaps forward, like a rooster pecking at their feed ... which is why the cock on a flintlock is called the 'cock'.

The snaphaunce would be a flint 'fire lock' that strikes a non-L-shaped frizzen, as they had separate pan covers. Above in post #49, the image #138 is a snaphaunce. I looked quickly, but the rest appear to be wheellocks and then variations of the flintlock, but those all had "L-shaped one-piece frizzen/pan covers.

But as Rick so eloquently points out, that era had so much arms development that who know what other variation or oddity will turn up some day!