Guns of "For Trade and Treaty"

[rich pierce]

The Rifle Shoppe catalog has snaphaunce musket kits. It’s out of print and obtaining parts or a kit takes patience because of the breadth of their offerings. The Rifle Shoppe, Inc. - Snaphaunce - English Snaphaunce Musket (579)
Meanwhile there’s this to look at. Snaphaunce Musket built by Yancey von Yeast for Kenneth Gahagan

Leonard Day’s sons offer locks and kits.

Brian Anderson of Vermont is a retired master builder of very early guns.

Flint62smoothie here is an avid and knowledgeable resource for early New England guns.

 

[Sam squanch]

Excavated lock plate #3 is not a wheel lock plate. It was an early flint lock. They kept the rounded section for looks I think. Kept the style of the rounded plate, but it was easier to make.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Rich, Thank you for the references, I'll check them out today. Flint and I have corresponded on a few things, and I've seen some of his posts regarding Brian Anderson.

This is directed to all. - Has anybody looked into what would be involved to get The Rifle Shoppe catalog reprinted? It's value as a reference seems like it would justify the effort and expense. The various obsolete volumes that TOW has reprinted seem to be well received, although only they know the economics of the undertaking.

For anyone following this thread, some other related links:
Harmon's Snowshoemen 1620-1640-weapons and accoutrements
Historical Maine Maps
Flintlocks of the Iroquois 1620-1687
9 Years a Captive. Experience Among the Malicite Indians 1689-1698
The Road to Canada: The Grand Communications Route from Saint John to Quebec
Fort Pentagouet

 

[rickystl]

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of photos of original French muskets from the Mid-17th Century. As mentioned, even TRS doesn't offer anything related.


TRS Catalog: The pages in my catalog are separating from the binding from years of use. LOL A friend of the owner told me he thinks they mentioned to him the cost for a reprint would be in the range of 20-Grand. (I could be way off on this figure). And no one there has the time. (That I can believe). They still don't have all the photos from the catalog transferred to their website. LOL They should authorize the reprint rights to others, and collect a royalty off each catalog sold. The catalog is a great reference in itself.

Meantime, here is a 1640/50 French lock if that helps.

Rick

 

[Nor'Easter]

Rick. Thank you for the post.

I've personally never seen the TRS catalog. Are there photos that accompany each firearm and lock that they offer / produce? If so, I would think it would easily be worth minimally $10-$15, even more if in color.

Thank you for the lock pictures. I have seen it before, and have considered ordering the castings and building a gunne around it. However, I have never seen a complete gunne using that lock set. I could just pick a 1640-1650 French stock design and barrel profile I like and build it. But it would always leave me feeling it was just a 'fantasy' gunne. Although, to be honest, I am beginning to believe that within as few as 20 years from date of original manufacture - many lower end gunnes would have / could have deteriorated to a real hodge podge of parts, and not even all parts from the same country of origin.

 

[rich pierce]

I’m digging out my TRS catalogue. It’s around here somewhere!

Get Torsten Link’s The Origin of the Flintlock. All the guns are high art but it covers what you’re looking for.

 

[Nor'Easter]

I have a little library started, as well as a few museums with period arms bookmarked. But over the last couple of years have still not been able to put my finger on what I'm looking for. I'm almost at the point of giving up the chase and just building that 'fantasy' gunne.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Nor

Well, there latest catalog 2007-2008 is 384 pages with B&W photos of most of the guns and locks. Completed locks have photos showing exact size. I'm sure there are some that would pay $100.00 to get one of these catalogs.
The earliest French gun listed in their catalog is a 1670/80's Fowler. And it looks right. I can take a photo of the page if you like. What period of the 17th Century are you thinking about ?
It is indeed difficult to find any photos of French muskets from about the second quarter of the 17th century.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

If you let me know what approximate years and styling (military or civilian) you would like, I might be able to go to my contacts and see what they have in their libraries.

Meantime, your "fantasy" gun sounds like a good build.

Rick

 

[springfield art]

I will add that all of the pictures in any of the Ryan Gale’s books are fantastic!

The small 'inset' photos in that book are disappointing, as they are dark and muddy. Otherwise nice book.

 

[Nor'Easter]

If you let me know what approximate years and styling (military or civilian) you would like, I might be able to go to my contacts and see what they have in their libraries.

Meantime, your "fantasy" gun sounds like a good build.

Rick

Thank you! I would say civilian, 1640 to 1650's, and to be found anywhere between the Kennebec and Saint John River drainage.
Country of origin? Well, that is the real quandary. My own research indicates that the firearm is as likely to be Dutch as it is to be French. English cannot be ruled out. And my own heretical belief, based on findings from the Pentagoet dig and the histories of the ports / towns the French sailed from - that none of the possible Continental sources can genuinely be ruled out.

 

[rickystl]

Dutch, English, French guns were all probably participants during that time and location. Most anything that would shoot was likely used/sold.
As far as locks go, I've often referred to the period between about 1575 to 1650 as the "experimental" period. The English Civil Wars period in particular. Matchlocks, wheellocks, snaphaunces, doglocks, and various Scandinavian snaplocks were all in use at that time. Like a race to final development of the French style flintlock.
I'll get in touch with my network and see what they can come up with for a 1640/50 French fowler. And I'll send you TRS page for the 1670/80 fowler just for grins.

Rick

 

[Nor'Easter]

Dutch, English, French guns were all probably participants during that time and location. Most anything that would shoot was likely used/sold.
As far as locks go, I've often referred to the period between about 1575 to 1650 as the "experimental" period. The English Civil Wars period in particular. Matchlocks, wheellocks, snaphaunces, doglocks, and various Scandinavian snaplocks were all in use at that time. Like a race to final development of the French style flintlock.
I'll get in touch with my network and see what they can come up with for a 1640/50 French fowler. And I'll send you TRS page for the 1670/80 fowler just for grins.

Rick

Thank you sir! You're a gentleman and a scholar!

 

[Sam squanch]

Some advice- you may want to ask around if anyone up in your area involved in re- enacting has a custom musket you can look at and shoot. That stock shape that looks cool may either not fit you, or increase felt recoil.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Yes, I should try and catch up with the "Snowshoemen". They have two 'companies' that cover the 'English' side of the time frame I'm interested in. And I see they have been involved in reenactments with their 'French' counterparts in the Canadian Provinces.

 

[rickystl]

Morning Nor

Here is the page from TRS Catalog detailing the French fowler from 1660/70's. We're getting closer. LOL I hope you can expand the text portion to read the details. Which are quite interesting.
I've sent an email to reach out to my network to see if we can come up with something French in the Mid-1640/50 period. Seems to be very little remaining originals from this Mid period that can be identified as French origin. From about 1680 it seems to jump backwards to about the first quarter of the 17th Century, where matchlocks and wheellocks were still in common use. Strange. There are plenty of English origin examples available from the Mid-Century. Anyway, hopefully something will come back from my collector network.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here's more from TRS catalog. Back catalog page and photo of the lock.
Based on French, and the time period you are interested in, this TRS copy might be as close as you will find. At first, you wouldn't think there would be much difference 20-30 years earlier (1640/50) than this gun represents (1660/70). But these few years were also the time frame that the French were in the early stages of developing what we term the true French style flintlock. A transition period if you will. And the French were way ahead in the game. Still, it's unusual nothing seems to turn up right at mid-century.

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

For that early, mid-1600s, and especially as a civilian ... I'd go Dutch arm, stocked like made for or repurposed from a matchlock, wheellock or snaphaunce. If pressed to guess by sheer quantity, I'd say there were more English and Dutch than French arms in civilian hands ...

Dutch arms by the Days:

 

[Nor'Easter]

Morning Nor

Here is the page from TRS Catalog detailing the French fowler from 1660/70's. We're getting closer. LOL I hope you can expand the text portion to read the details. Which are quite interesting.
I've sent an email to reach out to my network to see if we can come up with something French in the Mid-1640/50 period. Seems to be very little remaining originals from this Mid period that can be identified as French origin. From about 1680 it seems to jump backwards to about the first quarter of the 17th Century, where matchlocks and wheellocks were still in common use. Strange. There are plenty of English origin examples available from the Mid-Century. Anyway, hopefully something will come back from my collector network.

Rick

View attachment 252377View attachment 252378View attachment 252379

It's interesting how the split boss on the forepart of the trigger guard resembles the same era Dutch guards.

 

[Nor'Easter]

For that early, mid-1600s, and especially as a civilian ... I'd go Dutch arm, stocked like made for or repurposed from a matchlock, wheellock or snaphaunce. If pressed to guess by sheer quantity, I'd say there were more English and Dutch than French arms in civilian hands ...

Dutch arms by the Days:

View attachment 252391

This seems to be the direction I'm heading towards. Do the Day's have a website or a catalog I can order?