First Flintlock Advice

[Pmringer]

I am a longtime blackpowder shooter, but have primarily owned and fired War Between the States era pieces. I have hunted with my rifled muskets and they do a fine job, but want a flinter for my hunting needs.

My primary use initially will be deer and wild hogs. I have been looking a builds for a Southern rifle in .50 - .54 for this need with the idea of getting a fowler and/or a smaller caliber rifle later for small game. Then it dawned on me that maybe a smooth rifle would be better! I generally hunt in the woods where it is thick and shots are short. The smooth rifle will work for small game and turkey.

My concern is the accuracy at distance. I'd like to be able to hit a shot at 100 yards consistently. How much accurate distance can I expect to gain from a rifle over a smooth rifle and in your collective experiences is it really worth it over the versatility of a smooth rifle?

I searched previous threads and read through a lot of piecemeal information but there didn't seem to be a specific answer to my question.

Thanks!

Patrick Ferringer

 

[Dphar]

Smoothbores run from hopeless to 50-60 yard hunting guns for big game.
If you want a 54 caliber rifle you need to build an earlier style rifle with the wider, flatter buttstock than the typical SMR has. Something like a Dickert or JP Beck perhaps. By 1800 the ball size of the typical Kentucky was smaller than the 44-50 cal seen on earlier rifles and the stocking began to reflect the reduced recoil impulse. The SMR is even later 1820s perhaps and was generally under 45 caliber.
A 50-54 caliber rifle is capable of good accuracy at 100-150 yards. But the point its zeroed at is going to effect the ability to hit. A hunting rifle in 50-54 needs to be sighted 1 to 1.5" high at 100. This is with a load producing 1800 fps or maybe a little more. This will require about 90 gr of FFFg Goex in a 50 and perhaps 75-80 if Swiss is used. My 38" barreled 54 makes 1900 with 90 gr of FFF Swiss but it has a cupped breech and this probably adds 75-80 fps. Shooting at 100+ also requires load development. Done at 100 yards after initial sight in at 25. Where is should also be 1-1.5" high.
A HV 50 caliber trajectory will look similar to this.

This load is an easy 130 yard deer load IF, IF, the shooter can place the shot. So the hunter needs to do experiments at 100+ to see how well he shoots under FIELD conditions, sitting or with a tree for a rest etc., not off a shooting bench.

Dan

 

[Dave Marsh]

If you are looking to hit consistently at 100 yards go with a rifle. I am prejudiced to 58 caliber however 54 is great too.

Good luck in your quest. :thumbsup:

Dave

 

[Pmringer]

I appreciate the info. I can shoot three shots within 9" at 100 yards with my '61 Springfield and '53 Enfield. I would prefer a rifle for the accuracy at distance but the keep getting pulled back to a 28 gauge smooth rifle for the versatility.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Dan is not wrong in the figures he states. However, I, and many (most?) in this ml game believe hunting shots with a patched round ball should be kept within 100 yards. Either the .50 or .54 is adequate for what you mention. The .54 takes more lead but will give a slightly lighter rifle to carry.

 

[longcruise]

Twere me, Id be looking at a dedicated fowler for shot and a rifled bore adequate to the game you plan to hunt. IMO, that would be a .50, but opinions are all over the board (pun intended) on that question.

 

[Bob J]

Pmringer - I have a flintlock .54 southern mountain rifle that was custom built nine years ago. It has worked very well and am just as happy with it today as the day it arrived. It is very accurate with 80 grains of 3f Goex or 90 grains of 2f and a prb. Have used it successfully for deer and hog. It also shoots great with 50 grains of 3f for offhand practice busting charcoal or clays hanging by string.

 

[Pmringer]

The solution for both is a good idea. While the smooth rifle will be adequate 90% of the time for big game, it will have its shortcomings.

 

[hanshi]

I don't know how recoil sensitive you are, but the SMR style can really hurt the shoulder and rattle teeth. A rifle with a wider, flatter butt plate (earlier rifle) will be much more comfortable at the range. Something like an early Lancaster or an earlier Va rifle. This applies especially to the .54. Both the .50 and .54 are killers well past 100 yards; all you have to do is hit them right. A SMR/Tn style in .32 or .36 makes an ideal small game/varmint rifle.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The smooth rifle will work for small game and turkey.

How much accurate distance can I expect to gain from a rifle over a smooth rifle and in your collective experiences is it really worth it over the versatility of a smooth rifle?

I searched previous threads and read through a lot of piecemeal information but there didn't seem to be a specific answer to my question.

Thanks!

Patrick Ferringer

The choice for you smoothbore (fowler or smooth rifle) depends on the game you are hunting. If you want to hunt turkey with the smoothbore, what is the required minimum gauge to be used according to your West Virginia hunting regulations?

Most smooth bore ranges will be less than 25 yards for a shot load. You might be able to stretch a patched round ball out to 100 yards with reasonable accuracy. Most of us would recommend a maximum range of 60 yards. This is especially true if the required minimum gauge for turkey is 20. You will get quite a large arch in your trajectory.

If the minimum gauge for turkey is 24 gauge, then a 54 smooth rifle would fit your dual purpose. However the architecture for a Southern Mountain Rifle is for bore sizes of 45 caliber or less.

 

[Pmringer]

I think an early VA style will point more naturally for me. The butt is similar in width and shape to many of my percussion rifles.

Regulations do not state the minimum gauge required for turkey in WV or SC, where I will be moving next month.

I am leaning toward a simple poor boy style .50 with a substantial stock. My primary game with the flinter will initially be deer and hogs. I will think about a fowler after that for turkey, rabbit, and squirrel. My ultimate goal is phase out my modern firearms and hunt exclusively with blackpowder. Cartridge based firearms just don't do it for me. I need to start talking to some builders for the first one and may have a go at making my second one.

 

[tenngun]

I have been doing more shooting and hunting with a smooth bore, but don't shoot more then 50 yards. Some boys with smooth rifles or rifle mounted fusils as they were often referred to then can shoot comparable to rifles out too a hundred. I can't.
If you go with a SMR you can go with a poor boy style and have a flatter butt and a little wider made without a plate. I have seen some repos with a copper or sheet iron, I don't know if any originals were built this way.
A well placed .50 will make stew a lot better then a poorly placed .62 at a hundred yards.

 

[Alden]

The point I think most are trying to make is that a smoothrifle is versatile, however, though it may act more like a smaller, faster, rifle at a little longer ranges than a bigger general smoothbore, you cannot get rifle range out of it and are limiting your shot loads.

Curb your range and you're good to go with a smoothrifle. Curb it even more and you'll have a 20. ga smoothbore musket. Keep the range requirement and you'll want a .50 or more rifle and a separate fowler.

Sorry.

 

[Pmringer]

No need to be sorry! I was debating this with someone and was of the opinion that a dedicated rifle and fowler are ideal to cover all game the best way possible.

 

[Dean2]

It is possible to get a twice barrelled gun, rifled over Smooth Bore or one with a replaceable barrel. Either way you end up with the best of both worlds.

 

[Grumpa]

Indeed, many of the swivel breech guns were made just so, one barrel rifled, the other smooth.

I had a friend who made one. It was an interesting piece.

 

[Spikebuck]

I think an early VA style will point more naturally for me.

I have had a .62 Caliber Smooth Rifle in the Virginia style for several years now. Using shot, I have taken squirrels, rabbits, and turkeys. While I have not deer hunted with it, I have worked up a load that I would feel quite comfortable shooting at a whitetail-sized or large animal out to 75 yards. 100 gr 2F with a .610 roundball and .015 patch. It's definitely NOT a 100 yard gun like my rifles are...well maybe if I were after elephant. :wink: Pictures of it are all over this website...most recently in my turkey post in the hunting section.

Good luck on your choice.

 

[jethro224]

I generally hunt in the woods where it is thick and shots are short.

My advice would be to get a smoothbore first.

You say that most of your shots are close range.
You have the rifled muskets for when you are hunting a spot where farther shots are a possibility.
You don't have a smoothbore.

Smoothbores are very versatile and a heep of fun.
When I went to flintlocks, I got a small bore rifle first, then a large bore rifle, then a smoothbore. If I had it to do over I would get the smoothbore first and the squirrel rifle last.

If you do, or plan to do, any competitive shooting remember that there are limited smooth-rifle matches. NMLRA rules, which are pretty much the standard, state no rear sight above the plane of the barrel and a single trigger for smoothbore matches. A smooth-rifle would be allowed in rifle matches but would be a handicap against true rifles. There are a very few matches setup for smooth-rifle.

 

[Pmringer]

The gain in 25 yards compare to the versatility of a smooth rifle does not seem worth it for my first flint long gun. Even when I deer hunted with my 30-30 with receiver peep sights I never shot more than 150 yards. I have been doing more research and will likely go with a smooth rifle 20 gauge/.62 cal first and then build a rifle later.

I appreciate all the input. I will post pictures once I get it!

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hey Pmringer,

A "smooth rifle" is nothing more than a smoothbore that uses rifle architecture for the stock. It has no intrinsic accuracy advantage over a fowler or musket because it uses the same smooth bore inside the barrel (no rifling). Regardless of whether it is octagonal to round or round all the way, a smooth rifle does not have a rifled barrel. So don't expect rifle accuracy at 75-yards let alone at 100 yards, because you won't get it.

I wouldn't recommend shots beyond 50-yards until you are absolutely convinced that you can reliably kill a deer beyond that range and not just cripple it. A deer killed at 100 yards with a smoothbore is the most unlucky animal in the world and not something that can be done with any consistency at all. If you need rifle accuracy, build a rifle, not a smoothbore that looks like a rifle.

Having said all that, lots of folks take deer within 50-yards with smoothbores, plus they offer the advantage of letting you use shot in them for wingshooting. So they are versatile, but don't expect to get rifle accuracy out of them or you will be sorely disappointed.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup: