black powder beginner questions. traditions Kentucky rifle.

[thatoneguy]

So, I purchased a traditions kentucky rifle kit. still in the process of piecing the old girl together. but, being a long time admirer of bp rifles and completely new to actually shooting them, i have questions. i did some snooping around the interwebs and found that this particular kit, although a .50 cal, has a smaller diameter barrel? what size should i use? a .480? or just a .490?
also, as far as ammunition goes, obviously, the rifle has a 1:66 twist, i imagine that thats way to slow to use the minie and or maxi balls?
and as far as the barrel goes, would bluing hold up on a muzzleloader? or will i be forced to cringe through the entire browning process?
the finish on the stock isnt to much of a concern, i plan on stopping at a wood working store and picking up something nice, but i want some sort of neat design for my stock just to make it stands out a little. that being said, the stock is already a little thin, if i go anymore, would the pressure from the rifle crack it? or am i worrying over nothing?
and as for the whole 2 piece stock versus 1 piece stock. whats that all about? i imagine 1 piece is more desirable for looks, but is there really a disadvantage?
and what kit, if any, do you guys suggest for a beginner? something with all the loading essentials. been looking at some starter kits at cabelas for when shes all pieced together, but figured i would ask people who actually do this instead of a guy whose wanting to move product.
thanks everyone!

 

[crockett]

Well I'll go point by point:
1. I'd use a .490 ball. You might need a thinner patch but try the .490. Some shooters of 50 calibers use .495 balls so you should be fine.
2. On the conicals. These rifles were made to be used with a patched round ball. This ball is pure lead and I've seen 50 caliber balls on elk that flattens out like a quarter- that quarter with ragged edges spinning through both lungs- one shot kill. I think this rush to conicals for big game is a major misconception. The round ball starts out with a higher velocity and has killed anything that walks in North America.
Conicals create higher pressures, you have to match the powder charge to the weight of the conical.
Conicals are HARD TO LOAD. Some guys have a wood mallet to pound on the ramrod. If you do not swipe or swab between shots the fouling in the bore will make it almost impossible to seat a conical EVEN WITH THE MALLET.
Conicals lead the bore so you need lead dissolving solvents to clean properly. With a patched round ball the patch protects the bore- all you have is powder residue that can be cleaned with hot soapy water.
Would I ever shoot a conical? Maybe, if I was caribou hunting and the range was long (150 yards) I might think about it. As a general rule start out with the patched round ball. You are lucky to have a 1/66 twist, the PRB ought to do fine.
3. Blue. Browning is the way to go on a barrel and Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution is fool proof. There has been a lot of instruction on this but it really is easy- just a swipe, if you miss some of the metal get it on the next try. The small parts are browned in about 2 applications.
4. The two piece stock- only thing Traditional did wrong and yes- to save money. There isn't much you can do to hide the joint, maybe checker the area. A piece of rawhide- look like an original repair. One idea might be false stripes like on the Leman guns. If you had a stripe up to one edge and then started the next edge light- the joint might disappear.
Gear to buy- hunting bag(don't call it a "Possibles"- wrong term. powder horn, measure, ball seater, some small tins for patches, caps, etc.

 

[Khufu]

My first rifle kit I built, in the early '70s was a CVA Kentucky in .45 cal. same as the traditions. I polished it and took it to be hot blued, not knowing any better I stained it with Birchwood Casey Walnut stain and finished it with Trueoil. after seeing a decent rifle, I sold that one and bought another kit in flint. on this one I used the brass spacer for the stock to make a Maple spacer and glued the stock together and sanded it smooth. then disolved steel wool in hydrochloric acid and diluted it with water. this contrasts the dark and light wood and makes it stain more evenly then made my stain from walnut husks and finished it with Linseed oil mixed with kerosene. browned the steel and it looked like the better guns, just funny lookin', 33" barrel is a little short, but it shot well.
I added a patchbox and that was my first experience inletting, wasn't too pretty, but it worked. .490 balls and .015 patches (pillow Ticking) work great. start at 50 grains of ffg powder and look for cracks near the tang, lock, and tenion pins incase you did not relieve the stock enough to handle recoil (too loose there are gaps, too tight it cracks). I shot mine for years, and made meat with it on several occations.
they are great starter rifles, shoot well, not a big expence if you goof it up, and pretty handy in the field. the only down side, is all too soon, you will want another. I don't even finish a build before I am thinking about another. there is a lot of room for improvement on those maslin locks, properly adjusted and polished, they can actually have a decent trigger pull. good luck and post photos.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have a couple of CVA (now Traditions) 50 caliber guns and I will second the recommendation that you try the 0.490" ball. I think a patch of 0.015" thick pillow ticking is the patch material of choice. For patch lubrication, as a new gun, then a spit lubricated patch is good.

The issue with Minnie balls is the depth of rifling. You get way too much blow by and the skirts of the Minnie balls just don't seal the bore. The rifling engraved on loading type will be next to impossible to load without serious use of a mallet. There are a few types with short cylinders such as the Hornady Great Plains bullet that may work. But why use a conical bullet when the round ball is effective for hunting and target purposes?

The Starter kits from Cabela's offer some economy of group purchase. When you get your shooting supplies together, be sure you have an adjustable powder measure. You need one that goes up to 100grains volume of black powder. You should also get some sort of container for your powder that is easy to pour powder into your measure. You also need a good range rod for loading and cleaning with a cleaning jag in your 50 caliber size. Old tee shirts or better yet, diaper flannel make great cleaning patches. Dish soap and warm water make the best cleaning solution to clean out the fouling after shooting. Rubbing alcohol dampened patches will help to dry up the water left from cleaning. The last step is to use a good rust inhibiting lubricant such as Birchwood Casey's Barricade.

Welcome and read a lot on these forums.

 

[daniel collums]

.490 balls, ffg black powder, #11 magnum caps or standard caps, powder measure, ball starter, nipple wrench, .015 patches, can of mink oil patch lube, a .50 cal. jag, pipe cleaners a bucket for cleaning, dawn dishwashing soap and a roll of blue shop towels, a good cleaning rod, gun oil. you can blue or brown barrel use any kind of stain you want. the 2 piece stock makes cleaning easy, just remove tang screw and lock and pull apart that makes flushing the barrel easy. most of the traditions barrels need a good many balls fired through them to break in, so don't do any sight filing till after you get it broke in. it took around 75 to 100 shots on mine but now it hits perfect. i use 70grs goex ffg and the .490 ball with a .015 blue ticking patch from walmart, its a tight fit but tighter the better. be very careful while loading the rods are very flimsy so use the ball starter and make very short pushes while loading with the ram rod. also go ahead and get a patch retriever and a bullet puller for just in case you need to pull a ball. after you get going good get a round ball mold and some old roofing lead and make your own balls.

 

[SgtErv]

Check out the post in this thread "picked up an old cvs Kentucky rifle" (although the it's supposed to say CVA). It's virtually the same rifle as far as load information and such. I also refinished it, took it from bad shape to looking pretty good. Lots of good advice in that thread.

I second their advice on doing Laurel Mountain Forge browning. The Birchwood Casey bluing didn't turn out all that well, even to the point where I redid it. I'll be using that next time.

50 gr is enough for that rifle, and .490 ball and .015 patch works well. Sometimes it'll get hard to load - this is where a brass range rod and muzzle protector come in handy. The synthetic one doesn't do you any favors when loading haha.

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Check out "The Gun Builder's Bench on here for lots of good adore on finishing and building. This whole forum has great info and good folks.

Good luck and enjoy!

 

[fishmusic]

Don't think of browning as an unapproachable task. Embrace the experience. Laurel Mountain is recommended since it is not a hot browning solution and is fairly forgiving. My personal opinion is that browning looks more authentic and kinda cool. I have done two kits with browning. Read the posts about it. I dreaded the idea too but have enjoyed the experience and the rifle is MINE!

 

[don hepler]

I'll give you a beginners stock finish that's easy. All you traditional, high end custom gun guy's....look the other way.

After you finish sanding the stock, get Laurel Mountain Forge or Min-Wax stain,(walnut and maple mix looks good), and finish staining the stock. Use cheese cloth and apply 2 or 3 coats of Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil. After the final coat, let it sit over night and the next day spray a light coat of Min-Wax Polyurethane Satin Clear finish. No sanding, no buffing, just as simply as can be, especially for beginner and that type of wood. Custom high end guns with high grade wood, would use more traditional finishes.

The Laurel Mt. Forge browning is easy, but be careful, it will continue to rust, unless you neutralize the process. Practice on the small pieces, before moving onto the barrel.

 

[SgtErv]

Agreed. The polyurethane gave it a nice flat finish and is really tough. Spray can applied very smoothly, too. Good finishing step for sure

 

[coloradoclyde]

My personal opinion is that browning looks more authentic and kinda cool.

Is it more authentic? :hmm:

 

[azmntman]

Ya and wayyy cooler

 

[Grenadier1758]

My personal opinion is that browning looks more authentic and kinda cool.

Is it more authentic? :hmm:

Yup. But so is blueing and so is leaving it in the white or French gray.

 

[Tom Compton]

I agree, fishmusic. Browning "looks" more authentic to my eye, too.
TC

 

[crockett]

Brings up a good question, bluing I think is older than browning but all the methods are pre-1840. I THINK (have no idea) that browning was most common and that may have simply been because long tanks to boil the water, distilled water, etc.- it was just easier to brown. The other issue is whether browning was used on certain firearms and blue or white on others. I think some fusils/trade guns were left in the white.

 

[Brian Heap]

I built the same kit, and love the rifle, it's a little lighter in weight than my plains rifle, and I enjoy that part. I've shot only .490 balls and I use lubed patches only so far. It all works fine, I once put 110 grains in the rifle, and I'm still alive, and so it the rifle. I'm going to start with about 65 grains and work down a mite and see what the gun likes. I want it so I can hit something. I love the gun, and I used the browning process, worked great. :thumbsup:

 

[thatoneguy]

thanks guys! im just not comfortable with anything that has to do with rust. i think ill just pick up a bluing kit. as for the stock, i was thinking about picking up a cherry wood finish thats oil based and using that.

 

[Zonie]

I should mention, the cold bluing produced by the normal solutions bought at a gun store is not very durable. It is VERY thin and not that hard.
Depending on the maker, some of them are also difficult to get a smooth even coat, even with multiple applications.

Although the idea of having rust of any kind on a gun is disconcerting, it shouldn't be.

The thing to realize is there are several different types of rust.

There is the common, soft, red rust that forms on things and it is pretty useless. It can cause great damage if left in place and being upset with its presence is understandable.

Then, there are the "hard rusts".

These are the rusts that are darn near impossible to remove without sanding them off. They are often found on shovels and they can be very useful.

These hard rusts are useful for protecting things like gunbarrels and it is these kind of rusts that are commonly called "Browning" and "Bluing".

They both protect the steel under them after some sort of oil is applied to them.

They absorb the oil and become very waterproof.

It's the oil that does the waterproofing but it is the rust that becomes thoroughly saturated with it and keeps it in place


Without getting into the fancy names for them, the hard brown rust will change if it is boiled in distilled water (or exposed to steam).
The changed rust is black, often called "blue" and it is this type of rust the old Colts and Smith & Wessons were covered with.

 

[SgtErv]

I just a Kentucky rifle barrel with Birchwood Casey bluing...twice...I have to say, knowing what I know now I might have tried to apply it in a paste, maybe, or gone the browning process.

These guns take some vigorous cleaning, and I can already wipe off the blue a little bit. (Has a shade on the rag, really.

You might consider trying on pieces of metal that you won't worry so much about nistakes. If you don't get that cold blue applied perfectly the first coat, won't be anything you want to brag about. It's tolerable though. Seasoning it with oil overnight helps the color set in in my opinion

If you do that route, sand down as much as possible using assending order, rough first followed by finer, till you get to steel wool, and rub the hell out of it until it sheens.
When you apply, dig it in there like painting a fence post to get it in the surface, go on even strokes, and don't forget to do it on each flat. Then rinse it off in 30 sec. See how it looks. If it's tolerable, great! If not, you'll know you don't want to go that route and try something else. Strip it down and give another product or method a try.

And good luck. It can get frustration but research and Prep are good ways to prevent any terrible errors. It's a learning process for is newbies

 

[mooman76]

+1 on what Zonie said. Even the Birchwood browning solution is more durable. It seems a little intimidating to a beginner heating up the barrel to apply but it really isn't all that hard to do.

 

[airborne1]

If you choose to cold blue, research "oxpho blue" from Brownells. Many others, including myself have had great results. Enjoy your kit and the experience gained.