Shooting high

[French Colonial]

I'm good with your acknowledgement of this. I in fact said nothing different. You only got irritated because I pointed out it was an approximation -- which we now appear to agree it is. I won't get into debating your understanding of "miniscule" and "irrelevant," or in what cases that may matter. If you're still unhappy, you'll have to continue down that path on your own.

Typical, always want answers and specifics but provide none of your own when challenged.

 

[Stub]

OK professor, When filing the front sight down .020555 for a 6" change, sights 37" apart and 100 yards distance, please use your argument and show the formula and tell me how much the parabolic curve being shifted up will change the point of impact.

I contend in is miniscule and irrelevant, prove me wrong.

Stub, lots of guys here, myself included, prefer to use black powder rather than BP substitutes. However, there's nothing wrong with using T7! I've burned a bunch of it in the past and found it to be an excellent powder! It produced good groups, shot clean, was available in most gun shops and was easy to clean at days end - you really can't ask for more! Over time I found that real BP was a tudge more accurate (in MY rifle) and BP doesn't care how long ago you opened the can, it goes "BANG" every time, with proper storage. You can't say that about the subs, not even T&. Over time they lose some potency. Black powder doesn't. A friend of mine who passed away 6 years ago gave me a can of DuPont BP about a month before he passed. I use that powder ONLY to hunt with. DuPont hasn't sold powder in, how long?? BP has incredible shelf life! That's why I came back to it. Yes, it's a pain in the butt to get it but when you buy it, at least, in 10 lb. lots you'll get it cheaper than T7 ever was. Use T7 if you want to, just don't let it sit around for 2 or 3 years after you open it!

When I was younger I used black powder. My first hunt was with Pyrodex. Short story, big buck, easy shot and only the cap fired. I went to black powder and used it for years. Just getting back to BP shooting I don't want to purchase enough to be economical online. Locally subs are all that is available.

 

[doubleset]

Typical, always want answers and specifics but provide none of your own when challenged.

You apparently don't realize that I already provided you with all you need in terms of an answer. If you need more, then take a look at those two ballistic calculators that I and someone else provided links to. Then you don't actually have to do any of the physics yourself, but just plug in the numbers. If you really want to know, that's where you can get that knowledge. And you finally admitted that your approach represents an approximation and retreated to saying that the approximation was "miniscule and irrelevant" (which in fact I had conceded early on). So I no longer know what your beef is or what you're trying to prolong here. But I'm pretty sure that anyone can see why I'm exiting whatever the game is. It hasn't ever been personal for me, but apparently it is for you. I don't get it.

 

[Ponderosaman]

Shooting up hill or down hill will cause you to shoot high. Depending on how “slightly” downhill you are shooting it will cause you to shoot noticeably high. For all intents and purposes though, this effect would not be noticeable using modern cartridges at a slight grade, but it’s possible that the more curved trajectory of a traditional muzzleloader could make a difference?

Here’s an idea. Shoot the gun with the sights pointed 90° to the right. See if the bullet lands low and to the right.

 

[Stub]

Shooting up hill or down hill will cause you to shoot high. Depending on how “slightly” downhill you are shooting it will cause you to shoot noticeably high. For all intents and purposes though, this effect would not be noticeable using modern cartridges at a slight grade, but it’s possible that the more curved trajectory of a traditional muzzleloader could make a difference?

Here’s an idea. Shoot the gun with the sights pointed 90° to the right. See if the bullet lands low and to the right.

The shooting benches are on a burm which is probably waist high above the target area. The targets are about chest high above the target area. The bench tops are about 3.5 feet above the burm. So, I am shooting down hill. This is true all the way out to 100 yards. It doesn't seem very down hill but it is.

 

[doubleset]

Shooting up hill or down hill will cause you to shoot high. Depending on how “slightly” downhill you are shooting it will cause you to shoot noticeably high.

Yes. To many it's counterintuitive that exactly the same thing happens whether shooting uphill or downhill. But that's because it's the vertical force component (gravity) that's the same in each case. And shooting either up or down lessens the effect of that on the bullet's course (while at the same time either adding to its velocity -- if shooting downhill -- or subtracting from its velocity -- if shooting uphill).

For all intents and purposes though, this effect would not be noticeable using modern cartridges at a slight grade, but it’s possible that the more curved trajectory of a traditional muzzleloader could make a difference?

You'd have to do the calculations (or plug the values into one of the ballistic calculators) for different distances and different angles to see at what point the effect would be noticeable. Long range snipers are very well aware of it. And I suspect that most long range hunters (500+ yds) are as well.

Your question about the more pronounced trajectory (the result of velocity) of a muzzleloader making a difference is an interesting one. That really reduces to a question of "time of flight" since the longer that vertical (downward) force has to affect a projectile, the more effect of it you'll see. There will be more of an effect on a slow-moving projectile than on a fast-moving one -- over the same distance. And of course, it's that speed of the projectile that results in the precise shape of the curve it follows as well.

 

[doubleset]

The shooting benches are on a burm which is probably waist high above the target area. The targets are about chest high above the target area. The bench tops are about 3.5 feet above the burm. So, I am shooting down hill. This is true all the way out to 100 yards. It doesn't seem very down hill but it is.

Interesting. I'd think that for competition purposes and precision, you'd want as flat trajectories as you could get. But maybe this is done as a safety feature.

 

[Stub]

Interesting. I'd think that for competition purposes and precision, you'd want as flat trajectories as you could get. But maybe this is done as a safety feature.
I've been a club member for about 3 years but rarely see any club members when I'm at the range. I haven't talked to anyone about how the range is set up but I do know safety is very important to the club. The back stops behind the targets aren't real high so shooting down hill would be a safety measure.

 

[Snydly]

I only worry about sudden barometric pressure changes ... that's why I miss when I do.

 

[Doc]

Stub, lots of guys here, myself included, prefer to use black powder rather than BP substitutes. However, there's nothing wrong with using T7! I've burned a bunch of it in the past and found it to be an excellent powder! It produced good groups, shot clean, was available in most gun shops and was easy to clean at days end - you really can't ask for more! Over time I found that real BP was a tudge more accurate (in MY rifle) and BP doesn't care how long ago you opened the can, it goes "BANG" every time, with proper storage. You can't say that about the subs, not even T&. Over time they lose some potency. Black powder doesn't. A friend of mine who passed away 6 years ago gave me a can of DuPont BP about a month before he passed. I use that powder ONLY to hunt with. DuPont hasn't sold powder in, how long?? BP has incredible shelf life! That's why I came back to it. Yes, it's a pain in the butt to get it but when you buy it, at least, in 10 lb. lots you'll get it cheaper than T7 ever was. Use T7 if you want to, just don't let it sit around for 2 or 3 years after you open it!

Center shot, don’t know where you’re at ? But in my neck of the woods many BP clubs purchase BP in case lots so members can purchase at cost. Perhaps you could look into joining such a BP club.
Doc,

 

[R Ellis]

With a 54, you really need to up the powder charge and switch to the holy black. Order some through a NMLRA charter club, a reenactor group, or find a N-SSA member to help you.

As for hitting high, it's a bit of a paradox, but light loads on a larger caliber with a heavy bullet do tend to shoot high and that's due to the bullet still being in the barrel during the recoil impulse and that gets worse as the barrel length increases. A couple other suggestions- when shooting from the bench, do not rest the forearm on the sandbag as you would with a modern rifle. Grip the forearm where you would for offhand shooting and rest the back of that hand on the sandbag. I can say for a fact that tends to tame lighter loads on large caliber muzzleloaders shooting high. One more thing, use a center hold on all targets when doing load development with a muzzleloader. Otherwise you're counting on the bullet hitting where you really aren't aiming. It's hard to tell if your front post is exactly at the tangent point of the bottom of a circle.

Here's a pic of a group I shot with a 54 Kibler Colonial. Owner was shooting 5in higher and about a 6in group at 50yd. We changed nothing on the load. I shot the rifle using the exact bench technique I just described so here's photographic evidence it works. The owner was shooting all over the upper half of the original target.
View attachment 134593

Hold the rifle in hand and rest hand on bag is correct way to shoot all rifles JMO

 

[Bunk]

Don't forget to factor in humidity, barometric pressure and the Coriolis effect
respectfully
Bunk

 

[French Colonial]

Here is another formula us simple minded people to use for patched round balls at 100 yards or less using minutes of angle.

Distance between your sights X .000291 = radius

MOA equals at
50 yards = .5235987
100 yards = 1.0471975


So a 54 I own is 37" between the sights and is shooting 2" high at 50 yards
37" X .000291 = .010767

So, 2" / (MOA) .5235987 = 3.73143378477 X ( Distance between sights number(radius)) .010767 = .0401763 (distance to adjust sights)

Another method for those of us using files to adjust our sights and not a soule sight.

I will use a ballistic program for heavy projectiles at 500 yards etc. but they are simply not needed at PRB distances and I prefer the method previously discussed and cussed.

 

[French Colonial]

By the way, for those unmentionables my two favorite ballistic programs for iphone are Shooter and Ballistic AE.

I switch back and forth depending on which one works the best for the job at hand.

Check them out by doing the search on iphone.

 

[harleynut]

Just food for thought had same issue with my tc hawken .54 no matter what i did it would shoot high and to the left an old timer asked if it were a kit i said i pieced it together he asked if the barrel key was tight to the fit i said it keep falling our so i curved it a tad to stay in he said straighten it and see what happens well long story short it was the issue was pulling the barrel down in the stock wich caused it to shoot high not saying this is your issue but was mine !

 

[UndeadPoet]

My concern is that I'm shooting high now

You should never shoot “high.”
Sorry- couldn’t resist.

 

[Stub]

Range report.
I tried to use as many tips from you as I could.
I layed my hand on the sandbags while shooting and held the forearm of the gun.
The gun had the new higher front sight installed
I increased the powder charge from 45 grains of triple 7 to 70 grains.
I was using .530 round balls, patch with map lube and a dry over powder patch. I used a dry patch between each shot. The result was a vertical string of hits 1 3/4 long with the top hole level with the bulls eye. This was at 25 yards.
I then did everything the same as above except this time I used .535 balls
That group was also vertical 1 3/4 long. This time the hits were above the bull with the lowest hole almost touching the top of the bull.
Next group was shot as above except I used vegetable oil lubed patches rather than map. This resulted in the best group of the day. The was a triangle group with all shots around and touching the bull. This was a 1 inch group.
I dropped back to a 65 grain load and got a 3 inch group and back to a vertical group.
The next group I used 75 grains and got a 2 inch vertical group.
The last 25 yard group was shot using 80 grains of powder. That group had the center shot in the bull. It was a group 1 1\2 inch long.
The last round was at 50 yards. Again , 80 grains of powder. The first two shots were directly below the bull touching each other. They were about 2 inches low. Then the flier at 2 o'clock, which opened the group to 5 1/2 inches.
I was surprised that I hit lower at 50 yards than at 25. It appears that 70 grains of powder is best. The oil lube also seems like a keeper.

 

[Stub]

Maybe someone could come up with some answers for me.
What causes vertical stringing of shots?
I've always thought shots at 50 yards were higher than 25 yards but not I this case any idea why?

 

[French Colonial]

True vertical stringing is almost always variations in velocity, horizontal is USUALLY shooter error.

If your sights, both front and rear, are the exact same height above the center line of the bore the bullet will start dropping as soon as it leaves the barrel, my suggestion is after finding the tightest grouping load you can find adjust the sights to hit dead on at 50 or 75 yards, then you will be hitting high at 25 and can compensate and low at 100 and can compensate (Assuming fixed sights)

Your new enough that do not assume vegetable oil is the final and best lube, it may be, but my most accurate loads are usually with a spit patch.

Personally, I am not a hold on to the forearm kind of guy, others are, I insure the forearm is resting on the front bag in the exact same point on the gun and the rear bag is not catching on the butt, and I am a rear bag squeezer, squeezing it to fine tune my shot. (Except on dedicated benchrest guns where the front rest is adjusted)

 

[Stub]

Thanks for the reply. My front sight is roughly 1\16 inch higher than the aiming point on the rear sight. The rear sight is as low as it goes.
I wonder if the vertical stringing could be coming from the triple 7, I use. I try to seat the ball with the same pressure but pressure might also be a factor.
The lube I use isn't anything special to me. I have used Wonder lube commercial patches in a different barrel and wasn't impressed with the results. The map lube was great because the barrel stays so clean. I used 2 squirts of map on the patch. Then a map patch followed by dry patch between shots.
Someone had suggested vegetable oil for a lube and my groups improved immediately.
I didn't use a rear bag on this range trip, I usually do use a rear bag. By using my left hand under the for end of the stock, I had no way to adjust the rear bag.
Another factor could be that the bead on the front sight is so small it is hard for my old eyes to see. I am probably going to put some white paint on the sight.