Hawken accuracy problem

[flatheadharley]

Hello. I am new to muzzleloading and recently I picked up a used Hawken 50 caliber (Investarm, Italy). I'm trying to get ready for the Montana Heritage Hunt which is Dec. 9 to 18. Unfortunately I can't achieve any meaningful degree of accuracy beyond 25 yards. I'm using 60 to 70 grains of Triple 7 powder and shooting from a bench rest this rifle is all over the place at 50 yards. I'm sure that I'm doing something wrong but I'm not sure what the next steps are. The barrel looks good. I clean it religiously. I appreciate any advice!

 

[Bill M.]

Patched round balls or bullets? What twist is the barrel?

 

[Erwan]

If you are shooting PRB with T7, I think that is too much for 50 yards, try with 45/50 grains. and adapt the load for the distance. For example for target shooting, the right load (in my Investarm .50 1:60 twist) is 43 grains of BP 3Fg, but the T7 is a bit more energetic than the real black powder, so, a risk of dispersion...

 

[flatheadharley]

Patched round balls or bullets? What twist is the barrel?

I'm using patched round balls. I believe that the twist is 1:48 inches

 

[rafterob]

You may not be proficient enough yet by that time but maybe close enough to get a shot in. Your load should be good. What kind of ball, patch/lube are you using? You want to figure your optimal load out first. Typically starting at equal grains powder to caliber. Shoot 3-5 shots at a spot on a target at 25 yards. Up your load 5 grains and repeat. continue this until you achieve the tightest group at the highest elevation of groups. A 6 bull target is a good option for this process so you can shoot a different bull for each load. Once you have determined your load, set your sights.

 

[flatheadharley]

If you are shooting PRB with T7, I think that is too much for 50 yards, try with 45/50 grains. and adapt the load for the distance. For example for target shooting, the right load (in my Investarm .50 1:60 twist) is 43 grains of BP 3Fg, but the T7 is a bit more energetic than the real black powder, so, a risk of dispersion...

Thank you! Why would too much powder cause me to totally miss the paper at 50 yards?

 

[flatheadharley]

You may not be proficient enough yet by that time but maybe close enough to get a shot in. Your load should be good. What kind of ball, patch/lube are you using? You want to figure your optimal load out first. Typically starting at equal grains powder to caliber. Shoot 3-5 shots at a spot on a target at 25 yards. Up your load 5 grains and repeat. continue this until you achieve the tightest group at the highest elevation of groups. A 6 bull target is a good option for this process so you can shoot a different bull for each load. Once you have determined your load, set your sights.

I'm using PRB. I was using a commercial lubed patch but switched to thin cloth with Murhpy's Oil soap as lube. I will go back and start with 50 grains. I don't understand why a higher load would create so much inaccuracy at 50 yards ... is this because the round ball lacks aerodynamics and starts to move randomly?

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Need details
Ball or conical
Patch thickness
Is a sight loose
Are you sitting up at the bench or laying on top the rifle looking out the top of your eyes over the sights
What are you using for a rest out on the front
Define all over the place
Flinch much
Are you strong arming the rifle

 

[Erwan]

Thank you! Why would too much powder cause me to totally miss the paper at 50 yards?

Just because (in a very simple way) that your load could be right and good enough at 25 yards but too big or unadapted at fifty: your cone of dispersion goes greater with the speed of your bullet and the distance...

 

[flatheadharley]

View attachment 272958

Need details
Ball or conical
Patch thickness
Is a sight loose
Are you sitting up at the bench or laying on top the rifle looking out the top of your eyes over the sights
What are you using for a rest out on the front
Define all over the place
Flinch much
Are you strong arming the rifle

i'm using lead balls with thin cotton patches. I was using commercially purchased lubed patches and had the same problem. the sight is not loose. I'm sitting at the bench with a wood rest that is cut to a "V" shape where I put the stock. I'm left, right, high, low, and off paper, all with the same point of aim! my groups are ok at 25 yards but everything falls apart at 50. I don't think that this is due to flinching ... I'm ok with my 6.5 Credmoor Savage and my 30.06 remington. I'm not sure what strong arming is, but will look it up. Thank you,

 

[Phil Coffins]

My first guess is the patch isn’t working for you, the patch should be a tough cloth like heavy pillow ticking or #40 Cotten drill as sold at fabric shops. Wash the sizing out of it before using it. A .490” ball with that material will be a bit hard to start into the barrel but the ram rod will push it down with modest pressure. Lube will make little difference for hunting so try spit or anything else that suits you.

 

[2 shots]

if not already mentioned change only 1 item at a time, keep a record of the outcome each time you change something. good luck with it. are your pre lubed patches old??

 

[azmntman]

How about some photos of the gun, the patches (before and after firing), the ammo, everything??

If in decent shape a 4" group at 100yds is about what I would demand in order to keep this one.

 

[azmntman]

Also check ALL mounting points. Is the wedge tight, the tang (any wood cracks anywhere?) The lugs the wedge is pushed into (check for tiny cracks etc. I'm thinking you have something moving shot to shot. Recheck the sites for tightness. If you cannot hit the paper with only a 25 yd difference, there has to be movement somewhere.

 

[kh54]

I was the previous owner of this gun and I really want my friend to be successful and to enjoy it. So I'm also grateful for y'all's insights.

 

[flatheadharley]

Also check ALL mounting points. Is the wedge tight, the tang (any wood cracks anywhere?) The lugs the wedge is pushed into (check for tiny cracks etc. I'm thinking you have something moving shot to shot. Recheck the sites for tightness. If you cannot hit the paper with only a 25 yd difference, there has to be movement somewhere.

Thank you. Everything looks fine and seems tight. I will upload some photos. A 4 inch group at 100 yards would be wonderful!

 

[Pete G]

Start with increasing patch thickness. My standard load is 75gr FF .490 ball and .015 patch.

 

[jdw276]

I was the previous owner of this gun and I really want my friend to be successful and to enjoy it. So I'm also grateful for y'all's insights.

That is great. Did you have a load for it? Issues like this? How were you shooting it?

A big variable has been identified. The shooter. What did you do different amd what were your results. All can help with more info. More info the better to id a solution.

 

[azmntman]

I once had a gun that shot 2-3 groups reg like at 90 yd. One day I could not hit a dang thing. Like yours. Went on 4 years. Then one day I took it out pre sale and......? It was back. Nothing changed. I of course looked at all the stuff mentioned here but it didn't help. And other guns were dead in so wasn't me. Still no answer.

Maybe a change in conditions? Did previous owner store or live in a drier or more humid area? Could be the rifle itself needs to acclimate? Be interested to see how this works out.

 

[kh54]

I'm doing this from memory... When shooting this gun I only used Goex FF, 45 grains as I recall, although now I use Scheutzen due to availability. I think .490 RB with 0.010 pre-lubed "daisy" patches. I was shooting 1- to 2-inch groups at 25 yards and only shot it at 50 yards once or twice. I tossed the results when I parted with the gun (note to self: DON'T THROW OUT ANYTHING) so I can't share precise data. I have a number of muzzleloaders and I like to shoot them all so I'm having a hard time recalling exactly what happened at 50 yards. The new owner and I will work on it together tomorrow. I trust that he will want to share results.