Hawken accuracy problem

[Iceman]

A big variable has been identified. The shooter.

Do you have a friend, preferably experienced with Muzzleloaders, that can shoot it? This is the variable I would try to eliminate first.

In my experience shooting black powder is a lot different than center fire, trigger control, grip, follow through, it’s just a different thing.
If I shoot muzzleloader on Saturday and a service rifle match Sunday I can barely keep my shots on back stop, the reverse is also true for me.

It is less than two weeks to your hunting season, I hope you get it figured out and enjoy the hunt.

 

[jdw276]

One diff trip7 vs goex2f. Heavier charge. Need to xperiment. You are not doing anything wrong. The gun is talking to you thats all. Listen to her and she will make you happy shortly. Good luck.....

 

[kh54]

I have learned what little I know from experience with almost no coaching - I have never known anyone with the same interests. I've read a lot, watched a lot of videos, and I try to shoot at least three to four times each month. I'm not a hunter or a competitor (think N-SSA) so I have no compelling reason to spend a lot of time with any one gun to perfect its characteristics. (I have numerous BP long guns and revolvers. I try to exercise them all so that no one gets jealous of another.) Therefore, I'm not a highly knowledgeable source, but I would like to see better results. I'm sort of thinking the same regarding 777 versus Goex and experimenting with different patches.

 

[TreeMan]

Don’t move to 50 yards until you find a load that is shooting one ragged hole at 25 yards. Use bags front and back on your bench. You stated you shoot decent at 25. Decent at 25 yards won’t cut it. One ragged hole then try 50. If you are shooting one ragged hole at 25 and you can’t hit paper at 50 then it is you not the gun.

 

[Dale Lilly]

My turn: Carefully try to see if either sight might be a bit loose. A tiny fraction at the rifle is a wide divergence at 50-60-76 yards.

 

[Stykbow]

I’m not an expert, but I know what works for me, so here it is. First, I’d find something soft to use as a rest at the bench. May not matter, but it’s always been easier for me to achieve consistency with a soft rest. I don’t think your powder charge is to heavy either. I’m using 80 grains of Pyrodex rs in my 50 cal GPR. I can get less than 2” groups at 50 yards. I agree with @Phil Coffins on the patch thing. I’d find something at least in the .020 range to see if it helps. Good luck buddy. There’s no magic involved with this stuff. Just trial and error. You’ll get there.

 

[stikshooter]

Thank you! Why would too much powder cause me to totally miss the paper at 50 yards?

That's easy (patch failure) /or wrong patch /or lube/or wrong ball size ! Anything else is conjecture /Ed

 

[stikshooter]

I'm using PRB. I was using a commercial lubed patch but switched to thin cloth with Murhpy's Oil soap as lube. I will go back and start with 50 grains. I don't understand why a higher load would create so much inaccuracy at 50 yards ... is this because the round ball lacks aerodynamics and starts to move randomly?

Nope just sounds like patch failure ,make your own . Nobody I know uses commercial /lubed patch as they could be (ROTTEN) with who knows lube and how long it's been in storage ? Shoot and look for patches and your going to find your problem/Ed

 

[#blackpowderbill]

i'm using lead balls with thin cotton patches. I was using commercially purchased lubed patches and had the same problem. the sight is not loose. I'm sitting at the bench with a wood rest that is cut to a "V" shape where I put the stock. I'm left, right, high, low, and off paper, all with the same point of aim! my groups are ok at 25 yards but everything falls apart at 50. I don't think that this is due to flinching ... I'm ok with my 6.5 Credmoor Savage and my 30.06 remington. I'm not sure what strong arming is, but will look it up. Thank you,

Strong arm or hand. Gripping to tight which causes the rifle to twist or pull up.

Like some of the other is mentioned I'd tighten that patch up.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The thin patch, especially the pre lubed version often sits on the shelf long enough for the patch material to deteriorate. What do the shot patches look like? I am suspecting significant gas blow by or the thin patches are not engaging the lands to get the spin needed for rifle accuracy. Your performance seems to indicate that the shot ball is not spinning and accuracy is more smoothbore like.

For hunting you should use patching as @Phil Coffins suggests with a grease based lubricant. Save the thin patches for easier loading on a backup shot where accuracy may not be so important.

 

[longcruise]

I've typed this so many times that I should save it to a copy and paste

It's patch failure, plain and simple. There can be multiple causes. With an investarms barrel It's probably ALL of the following!

1. Sharp crown cutting patches upon starting the ball.

2. Sharp rifling slicing and dicing the patches on the way in and/or out.

3. Patch inadequate in strength or thickness.

All of these problems are evidenced by fired patches that are cut and burned (in that order for a visual) but they won't tell you which of the three above is the problem. Again, probably all three.

The fixes will be described by other members cause I ain't typing THAT again.

 

[Ralph Wainright]

i'm using lead balls with thin cotton patches. I was using commercially purchased lubed patches and had the same problem. the sight is not loose. I'm sitting at the bench with a wood rest that is cut to a "V" shape where I put the stock. I'm left, right, high, low, and off paper, all with the same point of aim! my groups are ok at 25 yards but everything falls apart at 50. I don't think that this is due to flinching ... I'm ok with my 6.5 Credmoor Savage and my 30.06 remington. I'm not sure what strong arming is, but will look it up. Thank you,

Read your patches. Pick them up after shooting. They should be on the ground about 20 or 30 yds down range. Burnt out patches or cut rifling patches may indicate a problem. Try thicker patches or reducing load. Trial and error. Great educator.

 

[CZMark]

I'll stick my neck out here: a .490 ball with a .010" patch will NOT provide a tight enough fit for good accuracy. Try a.015"-.020" patch.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

I'm using PRB. I was using a commercial lubed patch but switched to thin cloth with Murhpy's Oil soap as lube. I will go back and start with 50 grains. I don't understand why a higher load would create so much inaccuracy at 50 yards ... is this because the round ball lacks aerodynamics and starts to move randomly?

It may be that the heavier load you are using is blowing the patch out. If so, then it cannot grip the rifling properly. The clue to this will be that the spent patch is really shredded. A good spent patch will only have the outside edges somewhat frayed. Pick up a shot patch if you can find it and look at it. It should also be fairly tight to load if your patch is the correct thickness.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

I'll stick my neck out here: a .490 ball with a .010" patch will NOT provide a tight enough fit for good accuracy. Try a.015"-.020" patch.

Agreed.

 

[hudelsonb]

I agree with the issue most likely being blown patches.

However, one additional item to check is the ball. Are they guaranteed 100% lead? If they are hand cast balls make certain they are pure lead. If you get balls that are a little hard the result can be cut patches if the barrel is fairly new. I've had it happen with some balls I was given. Took awhile to figure out why every patch, regardless of thickness or material, was blown. Took a factory Hornady roundball and compared it with the balls I was using and there was a huge difference. Just squeeze them in a pair of pliers and you'll know. Used different balls and it's a tack driver. Unbeknownst to the caster, he was given some sort of alloy and thought it was pure lead.

Good luck.

Ben

 

[Bill M.]

Unless you just have to use patched round balls for the hunt try some bullets. If you want to prove that the gun and you can shoot try some sabots for a quick session and when you see the 1 hole group then go back to the round ball and find the problem. My guess is it fits too loose and the charge is high. Not a good combo.

 

[flatheadharley]

Do you have a friend, preferably experienced with Muzzleloaders, that can shoot it? This is the variable I would try to eliminate first.

In my experience shooting black powder is a lot different than center fire, trigger control, grip, follow through, it’s just a different thing.
If I shoot muzzleloader on Saturday and a service rifle match Sunday I can barely keep my shots on back stop, the reverse is also true for me.

It is less than two weeks to your hunting season, I hope you get it figured out and enjoy the hunt.

thank you for these helpful comments

 

[2 shots]

if not already asked ,are you laying the barrel or stock on the rest??

 

[Oldhickory]

Yes the patch and ball combination needs to be changed for starters. I shoot Triple 7 almost exclusively these days. I also use a larger size ball and patch this .005 patch. I also use Shenandoah Patch lubricant from Midway. Also I would put a new crown on the muzzle of the barrel if the patch/ball combinations dont improve. Also over time the combustion area of the breech becomes worn and allows gas to escape around the patching until the ball gets into a less worn area of the barrel. This is a simple fix by adding cotton ball filler ontop of your powder charge. This will place the ball a little further up the barrel. Some folks will see an improvement in accuracy by increasing the powder charge. This just moves the ball position further up from the fire eroded area of the breech area in the barrel. I suspect going to a thicker patch with the same ball size will improve 50 yard accuracy. And for that I highly recommend the Shenandoah Valley patch lube.