Shooting high

[Stub]

I just purchased a Used green mountain drop in barrel for my TC Hawken. With the rear sight as low as it goes, I am hitting 1 inch high at 25 yards, 7 inches high at 50 yards. At 100 yards the group is high but too open to tell how high. I am only using 45 grains of triple 7 2 F in 54 caliber.
I put a higher front sight on and haven't had a chance to shoot since. I am using map for lube, fairly tight patch and .530 balls. The patches look good after shooting.
Any suggestions on things I need to change? Ps I'm using a rest.

 

[Grimord]

That is a fairly light load for a .54. If the GM barrel is a slow twist one, I would suggest you up the powder charge. Start with around 60 grains and work up from there if need be. I don't think you should mess with the sights until you get a load that shoots groups that you are satisfied with, and at the range you most likely will shoot.

 

[Stub]

My concern is that I'm shooting high now, if I increase my powder my hits will be even higher.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I just purchased a Used green mountain drop in barrel for my TC Hawken. With the rear sight as low as it goes, I am hitting 1 inch high at 25 yards, 7 inches high at 50 yards. At 100 yards the group is high but too open to tell how high. I am only using 45 grains of triple 7 2 F in 54 caliber.
I put a higher front sight on and haven't had a chance to shoot since. I am using map for lube, fairly tight patch and .530 balls. The patches look good after shooting.
Any suggestions on things I need to change? Ps I'm using a rest.

Now that you have installed the higher front sight, which is what I would have suggested, it's time to get out to the range and do some test firings for groups and see how the impact on the target has changed.

How are you placing the rifle on the rest? If you are not cushioning the fore end, the harmonics of the firing will lift the muzzle slightly and raise the impact on target.

 

[Stub]

I rest the wood fore stock on a shooting bag. I have a smaller bag under the rear stock. The set up is on the clubs cement shooting table. The targets are slightly down hill from the shooting bench. At 25 yards I hold 6 o'clock on the orange center bull (1") and the balls hit in a group almost touching the top of the orange dot.
At 50 yards I hold at 6 o' clock on the bottom of the 10 inch target. The balls hit in 2 inch group roughly 2 inches above the center bull. That's about 7 inches above the poa.

 

[Stub]

The front sight that was on the barrel was regular TC Hawken. The replacement is a Williams .57 just a touch higher than the original. I would have gotten a higher sight than that but it was as high as Williams had that would fit the dove tail.
I haven't had the time to get back to the range but will soon.

 

[Grimord]

My concern is that I'm shooting high now, if I increase my powder my hits will be even higher.

Not necessarily; A higher charge may get the ball out of the barrel faster and thus hit lower on the target. With the low charge, the rifle is in higher recoil before the ball leaves the barrel thus hitting high.

 

[Stub]

I hadn't thought of the low powder charge making the gun shoot high. Thanks.

 

[hanshi]

Yes, a higher front sight - or a lower rear sight - will move the poi down.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I just purchased a Used green mountain drop in barrel for my TC Hawken. With the rear sight as low as it goes, I am hitting 1 inch high at 25 yards, 7 inches high at 50 yards. At 100 yards the group is high but too open to tell how high. I am only using 45 grains of triple 7 2 F in 54 caliber.
I put a higher front sight on and haven't had a chance to shoot since. I am using map for lube, fairly tight patch and .530 balls. The patches look good after shooting.
Any suggestions on things I need to change? Ps I'm using a rest.

You need to drive that projectile into the rifling. Bump the charge by 20 grains, and fire 3 shots…of Black Powder.

 

[Stub]

Next time out to the range I will try heavier powder loads. I wish I could use black powder but I don't have a source where I can pick it up. I have been using triple 7, I haven't seen any problem with it. More of a problem for me is locating #11 caps no stores seem to have any.

 

[morehops52]

My 54's don't do well with light loads and 45gr is definitely light for that caliber. I agree that starting at 60 and going up from there will get you better results. My guess is you'll end up at around 70-80gr with PRB.

 

[SDSmlf]

No jab at T7, but when I tried it in one of my accurate fast twist 54 caliber conical guns, things went sideways. Tried a few different loads, but quickly gave up with the bushel basket sized groups, although others love the stuff and have success with it. Gun was accurate with either blackpowder or Pyrodex, though I prefer Swiss blackpowder. Just passing along my sample size of one.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

Not necessarily; A higher charge may get the ball out of the barrel faster and thus hit lower on the target. With the low charge, the rifle is in higher recoil before the ball leaves the barrel thus hitting high.

Yup, that is why is better to develop a tite shooting load for the purpose intended and then mess with the sights, if need be! Barrel time is definitely a factor affecting POI.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Listen to what Grimord said in Post#2 & #7. Your chasing bullets before you have a good load worked up. That can go on forever. More powder doesn't mean your load will necessarily hit at a higher POI. Just my two cents.

 

[dave951]

With a 54, you really need to up the powder charge and switch to the holy black. Order some through a NMLRA charter club, a reenactor group, or find a N-SSA member to help you.

As for hitting high, it's a bit of a paradox, but light loads on a larger caliber with a heavy bullet do tend to shoot high and that's due to the bullet still being in the barrel during the recoil impulse and that gets worse as the barrel length increases. A couple other suggestions- when shooting from the bench, do not rest the forearm on the sandbag as you would with a modern rifle. Grip the forearm where you would for offhand shooting and rest the back of that hand on the sandbag. I can say for a fact that tends to tame lighter loads on large caliber muzzleloaders shooting high. One more thing, use a center hold on all targets when doing load development with a muzzleloader. Otherwise you're counting on the bullet hitting where you really aren't aiming. It's hard to tell if your front post is exactly at the tangent point of the bottom of a circle.

Here's a pic of a group I shot with a 54 Kibler Colonial. Owner was shooting 5in higher and about a 6in group at 50yd. We changed nothing on the load. I shot the rifle using the exact bench technique I just described so here's photographic evidence it works. The owner was shooting all over the upper half of the original target.

 

[Bad Karma]

I just purchased a Used green mountain drop in barrel for my TC Hawken. With the rear sight as low as it goes, I am hitting 1 inch high at 25 yards, 7 inches high at 50 yards. At 100 yards the group is high but too open to tell how high. I am only using 45 grains of triple 7 2 F in 54 caliber.
I put a higher front sight on and haven't had a chance to shoot since. I am using map for lube, fairly tight patch and .530 balls. The patches look good after shooting.
Any suggestions on things I need to change? Ps I'm using a rest.

Until you shoot with the new front sight, don’t do anything. Find out what you have now.

 

[Stub]

With a 54, you really need to up the powder charge and switch to the holy black. Order some through a NMLRA charter club, a reenactor group, or find a N-SSA member to help you.

As for hitting high, it's a bit of a paradox, but light loads on a larger caliber with a heavy bullet do tend to shoot high and that's due to the bullet still being in the barrel during the recoil impulse and that gets worse as the barrel length increases. A couple other suggestions- when shooting from the bench, do not rest the forearm on the sandbag as you would with a modern rifle. Grip the forearm where you would for offhand shooting and rest the back of that hand on the sandbag. I can say for a fact that tends to tame lighter loads on large caliber muzzleloaders shooting high. One more thing, use a center hold on all targets when doing load development with a muzzleloader. Otherwise you're counting on the bullet hitting where you really aren't aiming. It's hard to tell if your front post is exactly at the tangent point of the bottom of a circle.

Here's a pic of a group I shot with a 54 Kibler Colonial. Owner was shooting 5in higher and about a 6in group at 50yd. We changed nothing on the load. I shot the rifle using the exact bench technique I just described so here's photographic evidence it works. The owner was shooting all over the upper half of the original target.
View attachment 134593

Thanks, I will try your system next time I get to the range.

 

[Bunk]

Either high or low left or right the formula for sight adjustment is calculated by the formula
sight radius in inches divided by the range in inches will give the amount that will move the bullet strike one inch AT THAT RANGE.
I am going through this with a Pedersoli Sharps Sporting rifle. The front fight adjustment will be checked by firing tomorrow.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

 

[doubleset]

Either high or low left or right the formula for sight adjustment is calculated by the formula
sight radius in inches divided by the range in inches will give the amount that will move the bullet strike one inch AT THAT RANGE.

I'd like to see the math for this solution in the high/low case. That's the case where gravity is exerting a transverse force on the projectile (downward) for a given time, dependent on projectile velocity. I don't particularly want to see the integration equations over the distance for the change in velocity. Just ball-parking it by using muzzle velocity would be okay.

Also, for those who haven't used it previously: Rifle Sight Height Calculator