Variation Assistance - UK

[Davi]

I'm about to put in for some variations and just want to confirm what I should put down for the actions of various types of firearm.

Muzzle loading black powder revolver
Muzzle loading black powder revolver converted to nitro
Single barrel muzzle loading pistol black powder (either flintlock or percussion cap)
muzzle loading rifle black powder (wither flintlock or percussion cap)

 

[Spillikins]

You don’t have to put ‘black powder’ as that is assumed in muzzle loading’. Nor do you have to say ‘single shot/barrel’. The correct terminology is ‘pistol’.
And you must state calibre.
So your list should read:
Muzzle loading revolver .36 calibre (or whatever)
Muzzle loading pistol .44 calibre (I think flint or percussion is irrelevant)
I know nothing about nitro conversions, but I assume that is also irrelevant. It’s the calibre that is relevant. I may well be wrong!
Muzzle loading rifle .451 calibre
etc

 

[TFoley]

I'm about to put in for some variations and just want to confirm what I should put down for the actions of various types of firearm.

Muzzle loading black powder revolver
Muzzle loading black powder revolver converted to nitro
Single barrel muzzle loading pistol black powder (either flintlock or percussion cap)
muzzle loading rifle black powder (wither flintlock or percussion cap)

Bearing in mind that this is a 99% US-based forum there will no doubt be some head-scratching here wondering what you are asking about.

However, I live in Cambridge, England, so I can answer you.

1. You must mention the calibre of the muzzleloading revolver.

2. You must mention the calibre of the muzzleloading revolver - mentioning that it is a nitro conversion - you will NOT be allowed to convert it back to BP.

3. Calibre of muzzleloading pistol - it does not matter how many shots it fires.

4. Calibre of muzzleloading rifle - making certain that it IS a rifle you are asking about. A smooth-bore, providing the barrel is 24 inches long or more, is classed as a Section 2 shotgun.

I'm surprised that your club secretary has not advised you on this matter - that is part of their job as the your referee. Also, it's odd that you haven't asked any fellow club members - in our club we are always talking about the next bunch of guns we want.

It's a good idea to apply for your BP explosives license at the same time - this will make things easier at renewal time as both will get done together.

Be advised that you will need to include Triple 7 BP substitute on the explosives license - it seems that after many years the PTB have decided that it is actually an explosive, like BP. The other subs - Pyrodex P, RS and Select, only require you to show your FAC.

 

[Spillikins]

Trust what TFoley says.

 

[Davi]

Bearing in mind that this is a 99% US-based forum there will no doubt be some head-scratching here wondering what you are asking about.

However, I live in Cambridge, England, so I can answer you.

1. You must mention the calibre of the muzzleloading revolver.

2. You must mention the calibre of the muzzleloading revolver - mentioning that it is a nitro conversion - you will NOT be allowed to convert it back to BP.

3. Calibre of muzzleloading pistol - it does not matter how many shots it fires.

4. Calibre of muzzleloading rifle - making certain that it IS a rifle you are asking about. A smooth-bore, providing the barrel is 24 inches long or more, is classed as a Section 2 shotgun.

I'm surprised that your club secretary has not advised you on this matter - that is part of their job as the your referee. Also, it's odd that you haven't asked any fellow club members - in our club we are always talking about the next bunch of guns we want.

It's a good idea to apply for your BP explosives license at the same time - this will make things easier at renewal time as both will get done together.

Be advised that you will need to include Triple 7 BP substitute on the explosives license - it seems that after many years the PTB have decided that it is actually an explosive, like BP. The other subs - Pyrodex P, RS and Select, only require you to show your FAC.

1. Im actually going to have to email my licensing department about that. I want a Ruger Old Army and after research, they apparently never changed the caliber but early ones were marked as .45 and newer ones were marked as .44

2. So am I better off just not stating nitro so that I have the options or do I need to state that it will be nitro?

3. Just state .45 muzzle loading pistol rather than revolver

4. Great thanks. Yeah, Ill probably pick up a smoothbore musket at some point but at least I don't need a variation for it

Did my muzzle loading instruction on Sunday and haven't been back to the club since, Due to the distance I am from it I don't get down as often as Id like and when I do I don't always have time to sit around and talk much. Sometimes I manage a few minutes but sometimes I'm out as soon as Ive finished shooting unfortunately. Also a lot of the members come under different authorities to me so our experiences can be vastly different.


Thank you to all for the input and assistance

 

[TFoley]

1. Im actually going to have to email my licensing department about that. I want a Ruger Old Army and after research, they apparently never changed the caliber but early ones were marked as .45 and newer ones were marked as .44

2. So am I better off just not stating nitro so that I have the options or do I need to state that it will be nitro?

3. Just state .45 muzzle loading pistol rather than revolver

4. Great thanks. Yeah, Ill probably pick up a smoothbore musket at some point but at least I don't need a variation for it

Did my muzzle loading instruction on Sunday and haven't been back to the club since, Due to the distance I am from it I don't get down as often as Id like and when I do I don't always have time to sit around and talk much. Sometimes I manage a few minutes but sometimes I'm out as soon as Ive finished shooting unfortunately. Also a lot of the members come under different authorities to me so our experiences can be vastly different.


Thank you to all for the input and assistance

Wrong way round, Sir. Mine was bought in 1986, and is a .44cal. Sometime later the designation changed to .45cal. Getting it wrong is not an option, as the two calibres, at least in UK, are not interchangeable. If you get authorised for a .45cal model, then you can't buy an older .44cal, and vice versa.

In any case, they ALL shoot the same diameter, Ruger Old Army-only ball size - .457".

Forgive me saying so, but you seem to be all at sea with regards to advice - you really need to talk to other users in your club. Socialising, or gun-bragging, is a VERY importantt part of shooting, particularly where BP shooting is concerned, and right now, you seem to be greatly lacking in that facet of our hobby.

 

[TFoley]

Just had a thort - I mentioned '2. You must mention the calibre of the muzzleloading revolver - mentioning that it is a nitro conversion - you will NOT be allowed to convert it back to BP.'

The conversion to nitro-firing will have been done by Alan Westlake using a newly-manufactured cylinder made for nitro and #209 shotgun primers. As such, it will have had to have been re-proofed as a nitro shooter. You CAN acquire a second BP cylinder to use it with BP, but that cylinder, by itself, is counted as a firearm - all by itself.

Even if the revolver comes with both cylinders, that counts as TWO firearms.

 

[Davi]

Wrong way round, Sir. Mine was bought in 1986, and is a .44cal. Sometime later the designation changed to .45cal. Getting it wrong is not an option, as the two calibres, at least in UK, are not interchangeable. If you get authorised for a .45cal model, then you can't buy an older .44cal, and vice versa.

In any case, they ALL shoot the same diameter, Ruger Old Army-only ball size - .457".

Ah ok, I’d read that when they first came out in 1972 they were stamped .45 but shortly after, they changed to .44. I have seen a couple UK adverts where they were labelled .44/45

 

[Davi]

Just had a thort - I mentioned '2. You must mention the calibre of the muzzleloading revolver - mentioning that it is a nitro conversion - you will NOT be allowed to convert it back to BP.'

The conversion to nitro-firing will have been done by Alan Westlake using a newly-manufactured cylinder made for nitro and #209 shotgun primers. As such, it will have had to have been re-proofed as a nitro shooter. You CAN acquire a second BP cylinder to use it with BP, but that cylinder, by itself, is counted as a firearm - all by itself.

Even if the revolver comes with both cylinders, that counts as TWO firearms.

I’m thinking of an anvil converted Uberti Remington NMA in the short term with a Westland Alfa in the future when the legal issues are sorted and he can get the components easily again but same essentially the same thing.

 

[TFoley]

Ah ok, I’d read that when they first came out in 1972 they were stamped .45 but shortly after, they changed to .44. I have seen a couple UK adverts where they were labelled .44/45

Copied from 1973 Gun Digest. Priced at $115.95. It's a .44cal.

Copied from 1995 Gun Digest - priced at $428.00. It's a .44cal.

and copied from 1996 Gun digest - NOW it's a .45cal....

I've never seen any ROA stamped with a calibre, but labelling a gun for sale is not a good idea. Some authorities will not let you have a .45cal if they have granted you a .44cal.

Be very certain of what you are asking for.

 

[Davi]

Copied from 1973 Gun Digest. Priced at $115.95. It's a .44cal.

View attachment 226657
Copied from 1995 Gun Digest - priced at $428.00. It's a .44cal.
View attachment 226658
and copied from 1996 Gun digest - NOW it's a .45cal....
View attachment 226660

I've never seen any ROA stamped with a calibre, but labelling a gun for sale is not a good idea. Some authorities will not let you have a .45cal if they have granted you a .44cal.

Be very certain of what you are asking for.

Thank you for that, that’s perfect.

I sent an email to our licensing department explaining the situation and asking if I could put down .44/45 so I could buy whatever was available on the second hand market after my variation is granted. They replied to say that I should explain in as much detail as possible on the variation form why. I’ll print those off and submit them to show that they are labelled differently depending on their age but still use the .457 projectile irrelevant of what they’re labelled.

 

[Rawhide67]

Not to make this political, but Americans should pay attention to this. This is our future.