V.M. Starr Loads

[Marc Adamchek]

Finally got around to reading this much-touted booklet. I was disappointed to find that EVERY Shotgun he used was jug choked. I expected some secret formulas for getting tightpatterns out of old cylinder bored shotguns but no dice.

Also, every load he uses and reccommends uses 1F black powder. Has anyone here ever used 1F in a smoothbore load?

If so, please share all you can: the ups and downs, the loads used, the merits over 2 F etc.

I appreciate it, and I'm sure some other fols around here would too.

Many Thanks - Marc

 

[RwBeV]

I use Fg in most of my shotguns at least starting with 16ga. I have found that in my guns that my patterns have been much more consistent. I have never chronographs them so I don't know what kind of velocity I am getting, and to tell the truth I don't care as long as it will do what I want. For my 16ga. I use 3dr. Fg with one .125 card and 1 1/8oz. of shot either lead or bismuth depending where and what I'm hunting. In my Harpers Ferry I use the same load as my 16ga. most of the time. In my 12ga. I use any where from 2 3/4 to 3 3/4dr. of Fg and between 1oz. to 1 1/4oz of shot. I have a heavy Mortimer 10ga. that I usually shoot 4 1/2dr and 1 5/8oz of shot but I have shot 5 1/2dr Fg and 1 3/4oz for pass shooting geese. The only gun that I have that is jug choked is the 12ga. that I had a friend of Star's choke for me both full and full. Originally I had it done that way to shoot Steel shot and I probably will when I run out of Bismuth. I have had real good luck loading out of the Star book. So I figure if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Bob

 

[George]

Also, every load he uses and reccommends uses 1F black powder.

He does recommend either 1F or 2F for guns 14 gauge and smaller, but he loads the same amount, whichever he chooses.

I can't help you with the 1F, I never shot any.

Spence

 

[Golfswithwolves]

It seems to me that on this site most of the shooters have been thinking that somewhat less volume of powder than shot should be used for good patterning. BUT that has been with using 2F powder. I wonder if the old recommendation of equal volumes powder and shot might be the thing when using 1F granulation- maybe less pressure but equal velocity to the 2F loads :hmm: . I will be trying this idea when the weather allows. It seems to have worked for Mr. Starr after all.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Bob - Many Thanks for taking the time to list each of the loads you've been using; it really helps to see that a contemporary shooter has good results with Fg.

I hate to come off as a nit-picky complainer, but if you could fiind time to also tell us what #shot you use for the 16 and 10 gauge, and also any card and/or wad info for the 10 gauge.

You can skip the 12 gauge info as those barrels are choked. I'm still not giving up on the cylinder bores!

I really appreciate your help, and I'm sure thee are others here who do as well.

Best Regards - Marc

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Finally got around to reading this much-touted booklet. I was disappointed to find that EVERY Shotgun he used was jug choked. I expected some secret formulas for getting tightpatterns out of old cylinder bored shotguns but no dice.
Many Thanks - Marc

I'd say that is exactly why choke boring was developed and why it revolutionized shotgunning. There simply is no magic formula to make a cylinder bore perform like a choke bore.
Many people have found that low velocity loads do pattern a bit tighter than normal loads, but then one must go with a larger shot size to compensate for the reduced velocity. Larger shot means fewer pellets in the load which reduces pattern density and brings one right back around to where they started.
It comes down to a simple choice, either accept your cylinder bore as a 20-25 yard gun or get it choked. Really, a 25 yard gun is not such a great handicap as some folks seem to think.

 

[wattlebuster]

I have tried fg in my Caywood 12ga game gun and it shot a great pattern with 120grs. But it also shoots a great pattern with 100 grs of ffg both loads shooting #4s for turkey. I like both loads an would not hesitate to use one or the other. But I will use the fg for a long time being that I have about 7 lbs of it left over from when I had a 10 ga pedersoli double that a sorry thief stole out of my truck in the mid 90s :cursing:

 

[Moose_Owner]

Also, every load he uses and reccommends uses 1F black powder. Has anyone here ever used 1F in a smoothbore load?

I have started shooting Schuetzen "Renacter Powder" in my 12 gauge. The Renacter Powder is a mix of Fg through FFFFg. The velocities are within the margin of error for my chronograph when compared to the same load of Goex FFFg. The patterns are also similar. However, the Renacter Powder kicks noticeably less than the FFFg Goex. The Renacter Powder is also $2 per pound cheaper.

________________ www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com

 

[RwBeV]

As you can see most of my guns are cylinder bore, as Coyotejoe wrote there not as much as a disadvantage as some folk would lead you to believe. My 10ga. Mortimer was the first shotgun I owned so I have shot it the most. The old man that traded it to me took me out to show me how to load and shoot it. I started out with Fg, a bag of shot and a news paper. I don't remember what load we where shooting probably about 3dr. and a oz. of shot or so. Started out with the powder of course then a golf ball size or wadded up news paper, packed down hard on the powder. Then the shot and a large marble size wad of paper on top of everything. He told me the secret to getting good patterns of the old guns was to pack everything down tight. He had me ram everything down and then start throwing the ram rod down the barrel till it almost jumped back out. The gun shot surprisingly well at 25yds. I shot the gun for several years like that and I still do on occasion. Then I discovered prepunched wads, I figured that was better than sliced bread. I have shot as little as 7/8oz. and 2 1/4dr. Fg and as much as 5 1/2dr. and 1 3/4oz. of shot. Shot size depends on what I am hunting with the old girl. I use #7 1/2 or #8 for Doves and trap. When you could hunt Water Fowl with lead I used #5 for Ducks and Geese over decoys and #2 for pass shooting. With that gun I could reach out to a little over 30 yards with a heavy load and hand full of shot, but that was about it. I didn't need to make the gun shoot further I need to become a better caller and really choose my shots. I built my double flint 16ga. next I used Fg in it also again I could very my loads up or down within reason to do what ever I wanted. Where I could use lead I shot #5 or #6 for Pheasants and Grouse, #5 to #2 for Water Fowl, now I use #5 Bismuth for upland bird in areas where non-toxic is required and #2 Bismuth for Water Fowl. I should mention that I have found at least in my guns Bismuth gives me better patterns pretty much all around. I have found that you need to use a little heavier powder charge with Bismuth, but if you load equal volumes of shot and powder it works out that way any way.

I will add some more after dinner or as I can remember (getting old sucks)

Bob

 

[RwBeV]

When I found paper wads available for my smooth bore, I did quite a bit of patterning mostly with my 10ga. What I found was with FFg in that gun I would get dough nut shaped patters, not all the time maybe 3 out of 10 patterns. I spent lots of time talking to the old man I got the gun from since he had quite a few (419 when he past away) he told me that I should use Fg in anything bigger than 20ga. He also told me to "spit" down the barrel after I load the shot. I figured this was BS until I read about it in Stars book several years later. Now I know this works, there have been lots of time while dove hunting and trap shooting that I shot well over 50 times and had no trouble with fouling. A couple of years ago I made it to a shoot that the Colorado Springs club puts on over Memorial weekend, they are serious about shooting shot guns. They have there own trap thrower and set up just like a trap range. I did pretty well for never shooting a shotgun match, I did manage to win the flintlock match. I learned allot, instead of spitting down the barrel they used squirt bottles with a little bit of soapy water. I never seen anybody using cushion wads everybody I talked to used just paper card wads.If you like shooting shot out of your smooth bore I highly recommend the Colorado Springs Memorial day shoot. They do have shoots for rifled guns, but I really don't think that rifling will ever catch on. Another thing I don't pack everything down hard like the old man told me to do, I pack everything down snug and leave it at that. I think that packing the heck out of it was a way to pack the paper or wasp nest or what ever they used to use (I have found everything from rags to chunks of leather in the old guns) into a solid wad.

Over the years I have had everything from 410 to a huge 18lb 7 bore. I have loaded

 

[RwBeV]

Something happened, it posted before I wanted. I started to say over the years I have had muzzle loaders from 410 to a huge 7 bore. I have loaded and shot them all the same. Other than the 410 and my 20ga I use Fg, it always seem to work well for me. As far as wads I have found that one thick over powder wad and thin over shot wad work the best for me.

I have all these smooth bores because I love to hunt with them, so I want to be able to load as fast and safely as possible. Heck when setting in your blind and the Geese are coming in and you have an empty gun I don't want to fool around with 3 or 4 different wads its hard enough with just 2 kinds. So keep it simple if possible.

As far as using guns with no choke, that some folks say is a handicap I think it has made me a better hunter. I had my Navy arms gun choked to shoot steel shot, because I refused to stop hunting with a ML when we had to go to non-toxic shot. I may have to go back to Steel when I run out of Bismuth I have been unable to afford the new ITX shot that has come out, but I have heard that it shoots well in ML's. Anyway the gun will shoot like a modern gun with Lead or Bismuth, so for the most part I lend it to friends that want to try coal burning and I shoot my un-choked guns.

It all boils down to getting your gun out and finding the most consistent patterns possible. What works in my guns may not be the best thing in yours. I have tried all kinds of stuff that was supposed to give you better patterns from plastic and paper shot cups to pillow ticking. I always seem to go back to my hard card wads and Fg. I'm not saying that there is no place for cushion wads, in my guns anyway I see no improvement. There have been times when I had to use FFg in my guns when I couldn't find any Fg, there is no one that has it in the town I live in. From experience I know that it will effect my patterns so I make sure that I take closer shots, thats all, it wont stop me from hunting or shooting my ML.

So get your gun out and have some fun.

Bob

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Bob - I'm blown away by your posts! They were great reading - Informative, educational, and interesting bits of personal history all wrapped up nicely. Thank You VERY much.

I hunt upland birds, so 25 yard patterns are perfect. Actually, most shots are 25 FEET, with a bunch of brambles and branches in the way!

I'm inspired to start patterning all these guns I got over the Siberian winter. Like you say, it's still the best way, and it's FUN!

Thanks Again - Marc

 

[BrownBear]

Also, every load he uses and reccommends uses 1F black powder. Has anyone here ever used 1F in a smoothbore load?

I tried 1f Goex in with shot in my Bess, and for prime. It turned in the best patterns I've ever had from it. I was so encouraged I tried it in my 12 gauge, and I think with a small jump in charge (from the 90 I tried up a notch to 100), it's going to be even better. I'm even thinking of trying it in my 62 smoothie. Heck, I might even get crazy and try it in all of them with patched balls.

 

[pmwest]

I have done some testing regarding Starr’s recommendations centered on my T/C New Englander 12 ga. using Fg Goex and 3/32” card wads. I also compared patterns to FFg Goex. The next two paragraphs are from his booklet. I have inserted in parentheses the conversion to settings on a powder measure and shot dipper.

“For most any 12 ga. a load of 3 3/4 drs. (100 gr or 1 3/8 oz.) of Fg and 1 1/4 oz. (90 gr.) of shot will not be too heavy unless the gun is very light, and so loaded, a good 12 ga. properly choked will kill its game just as well as a modern 12 ga. with long range loads.

For lighter work, 3 1/4 drs. (90 gr. or 1 ¼ oz.) and 1 1/8 oz. (80 gr.) shot will do very well and of course 3 drs. (80 gr. or 1 1/8 oz.) and 1 oz. (70 gr.) will also do a nice job for lighter work like cottontails and quail or for just shooting around for fun.”

Note that these loads use Fg powder at 10 gr. or 1/8 oz (volume equiv.) more powder than shot. I pattern tested by varying the volume of powder for each loading to get the best pattern. My results confirmed Starr’s recommendations for 12 ga. loads. I also tested using the same procedures with FFg and compared these to the best Fg loads. My conclusion was that using Fg powder, use more powder than shot, as Starr recommends. My best patterns using FFg were with equal volume of shot and powder. I also found very little difference in the best patterns with the different granulation of powder. In other words, the best pattern with Fg was equal to the best pattern with FFg.

 

[RwBeV]

Thanks Marc, as you might guess I'm pretty passionate about my ML shotguns. I have been looking for a Turkey around here to try one of them out on, but they are logging where I normally go so it looks like this year is a dud. Oh well I need to practice for the Colorado Springs shoot anyway.

Good luck
Bob

 

[Darkgael]

Marc:

I hunt upland birds, so 25 yard patterns are perfect. Actually, most shots are 25 FEET, with a bunch of brambles and branches in the way!

Seems like you and I hunt the same terrain.

Pete

 

[Marc Adamchek]

wattlebuster - Round up a posse and count me in. We'll do some "pattern testing" on that 'sumbitch who stole your 10 gauge.