Traditional only

[djnye]

mr. ghost. good point. to carry it one more step i would think that a patched round ball is a type of sabot.

take care, daniel

 

[Old Ironsights]

So does this mean that by the reasoning of the last few posts that it is the sights and projectiles that make the gun primitive, not materials and design?

A synthetic stocked, stainless steel barreled and day-glow sighted rifle is traditional, as long as the lock is on the side, the bottom or the top, (but not the back), and as long as it is firing a PRB?

Anything is traditinal as long as it fires a PRB and does not strike the primer from the rear?



You mean I can hunt with a Firestorm but not with a Hall Carbine?

Well, since the Hall Carbine's nipple is still not fully "in line" with the charge, (see[url] http://www.civilwarpreservations.com/catdet.asp?TargetItem=FCR304&CategoryType=carbines),[/url] and the nipple/cap is still exposed, and the gun design hails from (arbitrairly) pre 1860, I would say they both should be legal for "traditional" season, whereas my #11 fired 1964 .45 H&R Huntsman should not be.

IMO, and just IMO, what make a gun Traditional from a legal and technical standpoint is vastly different than what is Traditional from a Rendevous/Dressup standpoint.

An open, sidelock ignition is an open sidelock (top lock? Underhammer? Side slapper?) ignition - with all of the enviornmental "disadvantages" they entail. Ditto for PRB & traditional Minnies. The materials that go into the manufacture of such equipment does not change their technical or functional essense, thus they are "Traditional" from a functional standpoint - which is all the LAW cares about. It doesn't matter if the metal is shiny - it is still a flintlock.

Thus, the use of modern pistol bullets or spire-points in sabots, or #209 fired inlines, or closed ignition #11 inlines whose design hails from post 1860 or so, can be rightfully called "nontraditional" because they are technically and functionally different firearms & projectiles that do not suffer the "disadvantages" of technically traditional arms & projectiles.

Now, while setting aside a season for a specific technical class of firearm makes Legal and financial sense to a State, setting aside a season specifically and strictly for those folks who want to play dressup and carry "PC" guns would have a negative effect on the season and the public opinion of muzzleloaders in general - which, in turn, lowers the revenue from those who would like the functional challange of traditional arms.

 

A Hall, But not an 1848 Sharps, correct? The law considers that a breechloader.

How about the repro 1858 Remington revolving carbine? Or an origional Colt revolving rifle or shotgun? They meet your time frame, are "traditional" and are as in-lined as one will find.

What is it that creates the break off point? Is it the "sealed ignition"? I used to mount a bunch of sealed adapters for pistol primers on TC Hawkins.

Did you guys realize that the TC Hawkin stock is so uncomfortable to shoot with open sights because it was intended for use with a scope? I mounted hundreds of them back in the 80s and early 90s.

I have a neighbor that bought one of the first inline rifles back around 25 years ago. His son learned to hunt with that rifle and now his grangson uses it! How many generations are required for a "tradition" to develop? When does an inline rifle become an antique muzzloader?

Exceptions for this and that and the other is what has us in the position we face now. Everyone wants their favorite "whatever" exempted because it is "traditional" because we say it is traditional and there are no lines drawn as a positive guide.

My state has a "primitive area" with a a primitive season. No plastic or stainless steel allowed. No compound bows either. Best place to hunt in the state, there's no one there! :rotf:

Guess what, they are now making exceptions for us!!!

Just being the Devil's advocate here.

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

 

[Old Ironsights]

Well, you won't see me arguing too strenuously on this point because I shoot a Stainless TC Firestorm... and a Stainless Ruger Old Army :grin: But then, I don't play (that era) Dressup either... (I lean more toward 1st Century AD or so...) :v

Your points are valid, on the pistol carbines in particular, (though even as "inlines" those revolving firearms are PC for the purposes of this forum...) but with the sharps... Well, IMO as long as a Sharps doesn't take a Brass cartridge, it is still an externally ignited hammerlock.

As to modifications of external ignitions so they become sealed, well, if the intent of the Season is to have Technically Traditional (or more appropriately "low-tech-ignition firearms") then a modern modification that seals the ignition breaks the "rule".

As for Socially Traditional, My first ML is/was the H&R Huntsman - the precursor to the NEF/H&R Handi-Rifle. It is a break-open, external hammer, floating striker, #11 capped .45 inline. If anything, it is more unreliable after 3 shots than my Firestorm in a downpour.

To me, defining "primitive" by material vs action is bad policy. If the law were to be acted upon fairly, no one could use any reproduction muzzleloader that wasn't handmade out of bad (by today's standard) metal and old-growth wood. Even the cheapest "acceptable-primitive" reproduction uses vastly technically superior steel to a Period Actual "Primitive" gun.

So, there is a pretty good historical account of the type, and function of "primitive (Open Ignition)" arms. In regards to Hunting Regulations, as long as the Action/Ignition mechanisim meets that historical criteria, I don't care what it's made of. :hmm:

Everything else can hunt during "Closed Ignition" season.

Your milage may vary. :v

 

[John Strong]

Here in Pa you have to use a flintlock with with open notch type sights(no peep sights). Up until recently you had to use patched round ball, but that has changed to allow other projectiles. They do have a 0ne week early doe season where you can use any form of muzzleloader, but the main muzzleloader season is still flintlock.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Here in Pa you have to use a flintlock with with open notch type sights(no peep sights). Up until recently you had to use patched round ball, but that has changed to allow other projectiles. They do have a 0ne week early doe season where you can use any form of muzzleloader, but the main muzzleloader season is still flintlock.

I thought you could also use Wheellocks and/or Matchlocks in PA primitive...

What has always struck me funny with the "no stainless/fibre optic open sights" crowd is that - even when comparing equivelent locks/actions, on one hand they will say that it's not "primitive" enough, implying it is better (more accurate/less sporting) than a primitive gun, yet in the next moment declare that such a modern 1/48 SS gun is nowhere near as accurate, and therefore not as good as, the same primitive gun.

Curious thing Politics... :hmm:

 

[Old Ironsights]

Ghost, the corolary to your post is also a truisim:

What is Primitive is not necessarily Traditional, and what is Traditional is not necessairly Primitive.

Primitive is a definition of Mechanics, Tradition is defined Socially.

 

[rebel727]

Mississippi used to be one of the toughest states where ml was concerned. Now it's one of the worst. It's not a ml season it's primitive weapons but they have a separate archery season and crossbows are allowed. In pw I can use my 45-70 Springfield with smokeless powder and could even stick a scope on it if I wanted to.

 

[Old Ironsights]

Mississippi used to be one of the toughest states where ml was concerned. Now it's one of the worst. It's not a ml season it's primitive weapons but they have a separate archery season and crossbows are allowed. In pw I can use my 45-70 Springfield with smokeless powder and could even stick a scope on it if I wanted to.

Indiana is trying to deal with similar issues by altering the regs a bit.

Currently (ignoring bows for the moment) we have a "Yall Come" Muzzleloader season and a Shotgun/Centerfire Pistol only season.

The problem they are encountering is that there are people using 7mm Mag "Pistols", which defeats the whole safety purpose of keeping firearms to short ranges. OTOH, the current regs also do not allow pistol caliber Leverguns, Falling Blocks or Trap Doors - all of which are Sub 200yd guns.

The objective of the new legislation is to bring some actual ballistic science to the law and allow short range cartridges in early design cartridge guns.

Now, to bring this back to MLs: IMO the same rules should apply to a Primitive Season. Open Ignitions, Open Sights only, no Sabots or Spire Points - as originally designed and intended. The new Uber Magnum Inlines are, when loaded as designed/recommended, ballistically equivelent to late 19th Cent. Breechloaders & Leverguns, and should share that season, not because of or lack of Tradition, but because of ballistic and ignition equivelency.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

M/Loading and Archery-Only seasons give hunters an opportunity to hunt with equipment that is limited in range and not as easy to use as modern centerfire rifles. These hunters must know more about their equipment, practice, and get closer to game.

Compound bows are much more effective than longbows but still a ahort range weapon that takes a considerable amount of practice to shoot well. Unlike the crossbow.

I have absolutely no experience with inline M/Ls. But it seems that with scopes and saboted pistol bullets they are a big advantage over traditional rifles. Their effective range must be 2 to 3 times that of a PRB. Also, inline ignition must be more reliable than flints and caps that are exposed to the elements.

I've never liked the looks of modern inline M/Ls but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we shouldn't try to regulate aesthetics. We should keep M/L seasons limited to short range weapons with external ignition and open sights. This makes the hunter do more "hunting."

 

[rebel727]

Just found out MS. is going to allow baiting of food plots this year. What? is going on here? It's not like we're being overun with deer. :youcrazy:

 

[jdixon]

Kentucky - an in-line is a muzzleloader just the same as a a sidelock gun. There is one area of the state that restricts hunting firearms to traditional style. Now, I am going to stay out of the "what is traditional" arguement. That one is like trying to dig tunnel in beach sand, a lot of work with nothing to show for it when you are done. I can give you what the regulation for the restricted area in this state says about what is and is not traditional for their purposes:
"Hunters shall not hunt with any type of breech-loading or modern firearm on this area. Hunters shall not carry a breech-loading firearm with ammunition in the magazine or chamber without
authorization from the KDFWR. Hunters shall not use in-line muzzle-loading firearms, scopes or other optics equipment while hunting on this area. Other types of muzzle-loading firearms,
compound bows, long bows, recurve bows and crossbows are permitted."

 

[Toomuch_36]

I think determining what is traditional or primitive and what isnt is simple.

Pick a date......if it werent around at or before that time, it dont fly.

Scopes, pellets, fiber optics, jacketed sabots, shotgun primers, in-lines.....those are all relatively new. And are nowhere near primitive. I believe they should have their own season, or be allowed with the centerfire season. Now the argument most I have talked to say that these things improve their ability to humanly and ethicaly harvest a deer. But Ive always thought that if you are responsible, you should have no problem with traditional equipment. Most of these people think my bow is not human or as good as a gun as well, but anybody who bow hunts knows that when used with common sense and responsibility, a bow is a VERY lethal weapon, just as a traditional muzzleloader is.
I think its the same principle with bow season, our state doesnt allow crossbows unless you are a disabled vet, because they arent as "primitive", so why do they allow non-primitive muzzleloaders.

Just my two cents.

Boone

ps. not trying to raise a stink, just getting some opinions. thanks

Simple, to the point and accurate. :thumbsup:

As white Buffalo says in Pa. the early season is open to anything as long as you stuff it from the muzzle. The late season does state "any long rifle manufactured before 1800 or reproduction and flint lock using patched round ball only" (although they do allow half stocked plains style rifles as well).
Personally I, and many others, like to use our flintlocks all year through inclucing the regular centerfire season as well.

Toomuch
.........
Shoot Flint

 

[Slamfire]

I would think the 1840 cut off date would pretty much preclude the Sharps breech loaders and the revolvers of any kind. I'm not too sure it outlaws telescope sights though. :rotf:
We don't have a traditional season, but can use traditional rifles during any firearm season, which is long enough for me. I've never had a hunt spoiled by an inline shooter so don't understand the need to keep them out of the woods while I'm huntin'. :shake:

 

[Goldhunter]

Utah says a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader as long as it can be loaded only from the muzzle;
(b) has open sights, peep sights, or a fixed non-magnifying 1x scope;
(c) has a single barrel;
(d) has a minimum barrel length of 18 inches;
(e) is capable of being fired only once without reloading. (By Utah law this rules out Cap and ball revolvers and double barrel rifles)

The powder and bullet, or powder, sabot and bullet are not bonded together as
one unit for loading; and is loaded with black powder or black powder substitute.

A lead or expanding bullet or projectile of at least 40 caliber must be used, a 170 grain or heavier bullet, including sabots, must be used for taking deer and pronghorn. A 210 grain or heavier bullet must be used for anything bigger.

I don't like In-lines and will not use them, and that is my personal choice. Where I see this debate headed is a division in the hunting community, we see it here already. And a divided hunting community is an open invitation for the Anti-hunting people to succeed in their agenda. Is there a disadvantage to having In-line users and "traditional" users hunting same area, same hunt? Possibly. The same can be said of long bows/recurves and compound bows. The technology of modern ML and bows gives the user an advantage. But that advantage is subjective. Out here, the In-line guys hunt just like they do with a centerfire, from ridge to ridge, across canyons, and from the road (don't even get me started on that). So, I just choose to hunt like I bow hunt. I get off the road and into the canyons, the holes, the places the lazy hunter doesn't want to go. I see more animals and get more chances. That's how I like it and why I like it; the challenge of having to get close. :grin:

Some In-line hunters see it as a challenge because they are limited to, say, 200 yards as opposed to 300-400, and they are limited to one shot. That’s their challenge. That’s why they like it.

The bottom line is hunters need to work together before there is no hunting left.

A long rant, I know. Just my .02 cents. :v

 

[Tracy]

I agree 100%

 

[roundball]

From what I'm told by many who read posts on the Internet, the bridgers, wakemens, and shockeys need to be convinced of that.

I'm told that they are single handedly creating and magnifying this wedge betrween fellow muzzleloaders deeper and deeper than any other force.

I'm told that their agendas and motivations are obviuous to anyone with a high school diploma...particularly when their articles flip / flop their views depending on who their working for at the time.

 

[gmww]

I agree with your opinion on how the debate within the hunting community has often been a positive for the Anti-hunting crowd.

We had the no bear baiting ban imposed because many hunters who didn't hunt bear felt it didn't effect them. Then it was no use of dog's on bear and couger. Well many hunters didn't vote against it because it didn't effect them. Nevermind that we use dogs for birds and bait for fish and other animals. It's just a matter of time before we see that argument. See how this slowly becomes a divide and conquer?

In Wa. inlines and traditional hunt side by side. However, I don't see a problem as the inlines are limited to the same limits as the traditional. No scopes, no jacketed bullets, exposed ignitions, black powder or black powder substitutes only, lead bullets only and caliber restritction depending on type of game.

To me the only difference based on our regs is the ignitions system. We are limited the same and are equal in the field. I am opposed in Wa. to further divide up the already short Deer season to inlines vs traditional. I'm of the opinion that we need to support each other's type of hunting whether we hunt that way or not. Or face the slow death we are seeing in Wa.

Just my .02 cents worth also. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

And I agree as well....what is disgusting is that the latest strategy taken by the bridgers/wakeman crowds is to demean and belittle the traditional side, claiming they are poor firearms to use for taking game humanely, not enough energy, not enough terminal performance, etc.

Dealing with those who propagate misleading untruths is a challenge...how do you go about doing that? How do you get people like that to shut off the intentionally misleading poison used to sway those who don't know any better?

 

[gmww]

Hiya Roundball. I read the long discussion on one of the other forums about just what you posted. One of the writer used to post there. I believe what you say is spot on. Also it's forums like this and other forums that slowly get the word out.

We all talk to other shooters as the range and slowly but surely the information comes to light. Not as fast as we'd like to see sometimes. :thumbsup: