Bullet casting/sizing advice welcome...

[Bad Karma]

@French Colonial,

"Bullet weight should match the twist rate within reason"

This is something I'm not quite familiar with. Could you elaborate? My barrel's twist rate is 1:21 I believe, so what would that mean for bullet weight?

It means it will shoot any.451” bullet you are likely to use. It’s pretty much optimized for a 400-550 grain bullet.

 

[longcruise]

@French Colonial,

"Bullet weight should match the twist rate within reason"

This is something I'm not quite familiar with. Could you elaborate? My barrel's twist rate is 1:21 I believe, so what would that mean for bullet weight?

It's also worth noting that while bullet weight may be a useful parameter to judge by, it's more about the bullet length and diameter. The larger the bore the slower the twist needed to stabilize a bullet. The 40 cal bullet guns usually have a 1:16 twist.

 

[WonkyEye]

@French Colonial,

"Bullet weight should match the twist rate within reason"

This is something I'm not quite familiar with. Could you elaborate? My barrel's twist rate is 1:21 I believe, so what would that mean for bullet weight?

Check out greenhill's formula, it's a good starting point but not perfect.
.

 

[Idaho Ron]

The gun: Pedersoli .451 caliber Mortimer-Whitworth. This started me bullet casting, cuz getting the bullets from the only source I could find was a little expensive.

The bullet molds: (1) Lyman .45 cal 450 grain "volunteer" bullet. (2) Lee .452 cal 255 grain conical. Both resized with Lee .451 resizing die.

The problem: constant jamming. (2) is especially difficult. I use plenty of lube in the form of animal fat or fat/beeswax mix, and the first round is usually not a problem. The problem is the second one... and every one after that until the next full cleaning and relube. So the gun is a real pain to take target shooting. I've actually been out there with a metal rod and a hammer, smacking bullets down so I could get off a few more shots off before having to go home. Already broke one wooden rod.

I've ordered another sizing die at .449, so we'll see what putting the bullets through that does. However, at the same time I don't wanna lose accuracy. The gun shoots pretty well. Just a pain to reload. Admittedly my lead is from wheel weights. I've considered buying pure lead.

Advice welcome...

Others have really covered most of your problems.
Wheel weight bullets are going to be a real behooch to get down as you already know. For bullets around 400 gr. You can use pure lead but lead that is slightly hardened will shoot better in my opinion. When you get to 450 gr I would be using 30-1 at least.
The only bullet over 450 I've shot is the Lyman volunteer. But mine were pretty soft and weighed 480 gr if I remember right. I didn't play with hardness at the time.
The longer and heavier the bullet is the harder it should be. But don't go harder than 20-1.

I very much dislike greased bullets. I switched to paper patched bullets 17 years ago. If it were me I would start with this bullet and paper. My rifle has a slower twist. Yours might like a bit longer bullet. Mine also like the bullet wrapped and sized dry to .446". I would use 50 cal over powder wads. I use 50 cal for my 45 cal rifles. And .620" wads for my 50 cal rifles.
Lastly, don't use a hammer and metal rod on your rifle. If you have the right load you won't need to pound the bullets down.

 

[Ranch 13]

If loading the first round isn't a problem, but the second shot is a problem, it's not the alloy or bullet size.
The problem is coming from powder fouling. You may find a heavier charge burns cleaner. Might want to consider using a different lube.
Wiping between shots will definitely cure a lot of ills.
It doesn't need to be complicated, and simple 2 inch heavy flannel patch damp with a combination of Napa cutting oil and water, mixed 1 part oil 10 parts water, run it down the bore on a tight fitting brass jag.
If you think there may be a leading problem that's easily removed by soaking a heavy flannel patch in pure gum spirits of turpentine, running it back and forth a few times on a brass jag and follow with a dry patch. Then a nylon brush wet with the turpentine, followed by a dry patch. Repeat until the patches come out clean with no discoloration .

 

[45man]

BP can be confusing when it comes to leading. I shot BPCR for a long time and used 20 to 1 lead-tin. Never had any leading and the bore was easy to clean. Then I cast some harder lead and the bore leaded fast. Sounds strange as heck because I shoot very large unmentionable revolvers with very hard bullets and never lead a bore. I go 2 to 4 years without cleaning some guns. I have also found if light loads are shot with fast powders, the harder the bullet must be and working to 30 bhn showed accuracy increaded a great deal. Now this does not work at all with BP and I use only pure lead.
I do agree that if you get leading, fine steel wool works best. I have used it for years on customer guns.

 

[Eterry]

The gun: Pedersoli .451 caliber Mortimer-Whitworth. This started me bullet casting, cuz getting the bullets from the only source I could find was a little expensive.

The bullet molds: (1) Lyman .45 cal 450 grain "volunteer" bullet. (2) Lee .452 cal 255 grain conical. Both resized with Lee .451 resizing die.

The problem: constant jamming. (2) is especially difficult. I use plenty of lube in the form of animal fat or fat/beeswax mix, and the first round is usually not a problem. The problem is the second one... and every one after that until the next full cleaning and relube. So the gun is a real pain to take target shooting. I've actually been out there with a metal rod and a hammer, smacking bullets down so I could get off a few more shots off before having to go home. Already broke one wooden rod.

I've ordered another sizing die at .449, so we'll see what putting the bullets through that does. However, at the same time I don't wanna lose accuracy. The gun shoots pretty well. Just a pain to reload. Admittedly my lead is from wheel weights. I've considered buying pure lead.

Advice welcome...

Use the wheel weights for prb, not a Whitworth, minies, or revolver bullets. I had over 100 Whitworth bullets a few years ago. They were pretty soft, maybe 30:1 lead vs tin. They came from Bill Hailey's estate, but they sold.

That's your biggest problem IMHO. Next is see how rough the bore is, it may need lapping as described above.

I think once you start using roofing lead/tin your problems will disappear. WWs are much to hard for black powder, unless for prb or smoothbore bullets. I've been given minies cast from wheel weights, they are pretty much worthless until I melt them and make prb.

 

[Eterry]

I've been condemned here for saying this previously but here I go again. Fine steel wool wrapped around the jag. If leading is bad you will see it in the steel wool. Keep at it until there's no more showing. No lube or "solvent".

I got this from Scheutzen competitors and BPCR shooters at my club. I have done it myself with ml guns and with a 45-70 falling block that had become leaded. It was easy to see that it cleaned up the lead and didn't do any harm to the bore.

I was taught the same thing from the Gunsmith where I apprenticed for 2 years. It truly works, maybe not so much on barrels made in the 19th century, due to soft metal.

 

[TFoley]

The Pedersoli Mortimer Whitworth rifle shoots a cylindrical bullet, not a hexagonal bullet. The word 'Whitworth' refers to the match in which it is shot, not the style of rifling usually associated with the Whitworth rifle.

 

[Eterry]

The Pedersoli Mortimer Whitworth rifle shoots a cylindrical bullet, not a hexagonal bullet. The word 'Whitworth' refers to the match in which it is shot, not the style of rifling usually associated with the Whitworth rifle.

Tfoley, what's the diameter and weight of the Mortimer cylindrical bullets? I have many more paper and onion patched bullets from Hailey's estate.

 

[TFoley]

Tfoley, what's the diameter and weight of the Mortimer cylindrical bullets? I have many more paper and onion patched bullets from Hailey's estate.

I don't have this rifle, but I DO shoot cylindrical bullets in my hex-bored Whitworth. They are Lyman multi-groove - sized @.451 and weigh 535gr.

BTW, my name is Tac.

 

[Dogwood]

Tfoley, what's the diameter and weight of the Mortimer cylindrical bullets? I have many more paper and onion patched bullets from Hailey's estate.

It's .451 stamped on the barrel. Don't have a micrometer to get anything more precise

 

[Eterry]

It's .451 stamped on the barrel. Don't have a micrometer to get anything more precise

If you're interested i can look around, and see what I have. Both are paper patched.

 

[Eterry]

I don't have this rifle, but I DO shoot cylindrical bullets in my hex-bored Whitworth. They are Lyman multi-groove - sized @.451 and weigh 535gr.

BTW, my name is Tac.

Thanks Tac...I'd forgotten you're hyphenated name, Tac-driver.
I have plenty of 2 weights, I need to dig them out.

 

[Dogwood]

If you're interested i can look around, and see what I have. Both are paper patched.

Appreciate it. I'm gonna start by casting what I have with pure lead and resizing. See what kind of progress comes of it.

 

[Jeff Coates]

The Pedersoli Mortimer Whitworth rifle shoots a cylindrical bullet, not a hexagonal bullet. The word 'Whitworth' refers to the match in which it is shot, not the style of rifling usually associated with the Whitworth rifle.

Please explain the difference (if there is any) between the “generic Pedersoli whitworth (.451) and the Mortimer Whitworth rifle refered to in your post.

I just purchased a Pedersoli Whitworth “enfield” (which has not even arrived yet) and I am looking for information.

Ideally I want to shoot the whitworth hexagonal bullet with a tang sight of some sort ( looking for input on that as well) I shoot left-handed, so I suppose windage adjustments may have to be on the front sight.

In a perfect world, there would be a bubbble level too.

 

[TFoley]

Please explain the difference (if there is any) between the “generic Pedersoli whitworth (.451) and the Mortimer Whitworth rifle refered to in your post.

I just purchased a Pedersoli Whitworth “enfield” (which has not even arrived yet) and I am looking for information.

Ideally I want to shoot the whitworth hexagonal bullet with a tang sight of some sort ( looking for input on that as well) I shoot left-handed, so I suppose windage adjustments may have to be on the front sight.

In a perfect world, there would be a bubbble level too.

In order to shoot the hexagonal bullets, you first need to have a hexagonally-rifled barrel.

The Pedersoli Mortimer is named 'Whitworth' from the competition, not the design of the rifling, which is quite normally grooved.

There is an absolute ton of information on these pages about the recently-introduced Pedersoli Whitworth-rifled item. As my Whitworth is a Parker-Hale Whitworth, I'm not qualified to comment on the features of the Pedersoli version, or its features, good or bad, simply to say that in my experience, and that of many other shooters, trying to find an affordable hex mould for it can be unicorn-hunting. Peter Starley in Budapest sells one, and Mike SNU on Jersey does one as well - each is around US$300 or so. A Kranen three-piece mould is another possibility, for around $4-500, if you can find one, and I'm told that there are a couple of US makers, too, again, very enthusiastically-priced - they are VERY complex to make, as you can imagine.

Many complain that the Pedersoli mould - sold, less handles for around US$200 - makes an oversize bullet - a feature that will leave you, with your .451 A/F bore, with a paperweight.

However, you can remedy that by shooting a cylindro-conoidal bullet that you can - a. patch if undersized and smooth-sided, or b. size to fit and multi-groove.

My advice, take it or leave it, is to measure the bore of your new rifle when you get it, and THEN decide whether the risk of buying a Pedersoli mould is worth it. I got lucky, as I'm on the Whitworth collectors FB pages with many contacts, and a friend back home in Canada sold me his Pedersoli mould that throws a perfectly-fitting hexagonal bullet for me - he'd sent me a sample to try first.

Perhaps Mr Minshall of the MLAGB might drop in here - he is far more experienced than I am with the arcanities of the Whitworth rifle.

 

[nkbj]

Dogwood, another way that works has been using wads made from that relatively soft molded paper from egg cartons. Sometimes stacking a few beneath the bullet seems to work somewhat like the soft fiber packing in valve stems for valves in liquid service. Dry one against the powder followed by lube impregnated ones. As an example aside, I found that to be helpful in preventing gas cutting when shooting a bullet with a stepped base (it was a gas check design mold), that stepped base creating the problem to start with.
So I want to try this one too... Just because I can!

 

[TFoley]

@OP - I've just had a message from Mike Alexandre on Jersey. His mould is around £250 including shipping, and he needs the exact size of you bore and also whether or not you intend to paper-patch the hex bullet.

 

[sethwyo]

I once solved a similar problem by polishing the bore out real good right at the area where the slug goes into the lands,
It was a 54 caliber and I got a 50 caliber round cleaning brush and got it mounted on the end of a rod with a drill on the other end and stuck it in there and spun it for about 10 seconds while pulling it back and forth so it polished up several inches of the rifling in the lands there.

Solved the problem