Traditional hunting and florescent orange

[rabjr]

It's probably safe to assume that most hunting accidental shooting occur in low-light situations. In that case, no color is going to show up well to the human eye.

It's also probably safe to assume that hunter orange has reduced these sort of fatalities in other-than-low-light conditions.

We had an, I hate to call it an accident because it really was murder, happen here a few years ago. A father shot a deer and while tracking it the son took off his hunter orange vest as it was shotgun season ans a vest is required. He took it off apparently not to spook the deer as he was tracking it. No one knows for sure. Anyways the father saw a bush moving, let me say that again, he saw a bush moving, nothing else, but it had to be a deer, so he unloaded his gun into the bush as his son was stepping out of it. Killing him.

Would things have been didfferent if he was wearing his orange vest? Who knows but one thing is sure, you do not shoot at moving bushes, ever.
What happened that day was senseless and should never had happened. :shake:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I beg to differ with you. The Data I get includes ALL hunting related accidents. And, I get the time of day, the weather conditions, the day of the week, the month, the game hunted,the relation between the victim and shooter, and yes, we also get those self-inflicted wounds, including suicides that are called "accidents" to placate families.

We have a number or IDGAD( I don't give a "darn" :grin: ) shootings, where someone is just so determined to shoot something, that he doesn't care if his hunting partner is over in that direction, or worse, HE HAS NO IDEA where his hunting partner IS. A lot of these IDGAD shooting occur within 30 yds, with the shooter using a shotgun.

I personally believe that these shootings should be prosecuted as Reckless Conduct, or Reckless Homicide, when the victim is killed.

Hunter Orange has dramatically reduced the number of shooting accidents here in Illinois.

I have a chart that goes back to 1964, and you can see where hunter education, and Then CHANGES in the requirement to wear Hunter Orange cause Dramatic drops in accidents. I lobbied my DNR to require the wearing of at least a HO HAT for upland game hunters, and that dropped accidents among that group of hunters to nearly zero the second year after the new rule was adopted. It has since risen, mostly with the IDGAD kinds of shootings, sadly. But, the raw numbers are still lower than they were before the rule was adopted.

The Hunting Shooting accidents("A") have dropped down so low in Illinois, that the DNR began adding a second category of Hunting accidents-"B" accidents, involving other injuries sustained by hunters while hunting- mainly falls from Treestands. We often have more B accidents reported than "A" accidents in a given year, these days. That is a good thing, but nothing to be proud about. All the accidents are serious enough that the victim is treated at a hospital or Emergency Room. :hmm: :shocked2:

 

[longcruise]

Go back & check the statistics that you've been reading. Almost every time you read about this topic, statistics are quoted that include self inflicted wounds, heart attacks, victoms moving into the line of fire, shooter stumbling, etc. In actuality, only about 4% of the accidents are related to mis-identifying the target, but the fact that the victom wasn't wearing blaze orange is blamed for the accident by proponents of wearing blaze orange for safety.

A lot of what you say is correct. I'm having trouble visualizing anyboy blaming a heart attack on a lack of orange though! :haha: (just kidding)

It's not hard to dig up the stats regarding accidents involving hunters mistaken for game. In my state of CO there has been a very real reduction of that type of accident since BO became mandatory.

 

[broknaero]

Bald Mtn Man,

I do some hunting with a group up by you in Owego. Though its not required everyone wears orange. Last season on (private property) first day of gun season it was raining buckets. There was movement 50 yards below me on a trail. As it came closer I could make out what it was through the pouring rain. 3 trespassers slipping over from the neighboring club. All in camo. Thats why I wear orange.

 

[ssettle]

I hunt in PA and always wear an orange hat. My family does ... it's safer that way because we put on small drives. We get into some nasty stuff sometimes so you really have to be careful. :v

 

[Protrucker]

......I have a chart that goes back to 1964, and you can see where hunter education, and Then CHANGES in the requirement to wear Hunter Orange cause Dramatic drops in accidents.

Paul,
You hit the nail right on the head! New York did a study on the safety orange issue, comparing areas where orange was required & looking at the hunter education programs. The conclusion of the study was that the lowered accident rate tended to be more related to the increased hunter education than to the use of orange. New York State does have an excellent hunter education program, but does not require blaze orange.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Illinois has several State Owned Hunting preserves, where stocked birds are released and hunters pay a daily fee to hunt them. At these preserves, EVERYONE has always been required to wear a Blaze Orange vest. In the history of these preserves, there has never been a shooter wounded by another hunter. I pointed this out to DNR officials when I argued in favor of asking that upland game hunters wear at BO hat. That change, which came too late to be published in the Digest of Hunting Regulations passed out with hunting licenses the first year, dropped upland game shootings to ZERO the next year- the first full year the rule was in placed and Enforced. Our total Hunting accidents where injuries or death were the result of shootings with guns or bows and arrows, dropped by one third!

Now, I am not Talking about a lot of Hunting accidents. For more than 300,000 licenses and permits sold, we were down to about 20-24 accidents per Year for the whole state of Illinois. But the " year of the great drop", the number dropped down to 13! Everyone-- and I include myself--- was Shocked. There simply was no other word to describe our reaction. No one thought a SINGLE RULE change would have so dramatic an effect on hunting accidents.

But, giving education its due, in 1964, when Illinois first passed a mandatory Hunter Safety Training course for hunters 16 and under, we had more than 60 hunting accidents, including almost a dozen fatalities. Education had whittled that number down to the low 20s BEFORE the wear a BO HAT when upland game hunting was passed some 10 years ago, and a fatality in any year now is big news. We have more deaths reported from snowmobiling accidents, and, of course, from Boating accidents.

If any member wants more specific details, please just send me a PT. I have annual records now going back to 1982, and as I have said, a chart that goes back to 1964.

 

[rabjr]

I'm actually surprised theres not a movement towards Florescent Green which I read somewhere could be seen a lot farter than any other saftey color.

 

[nw_hunter]

I'm actually surprised theres not a movement towards Florescent Green which I read somewhere could be seen a lot farter than any other saftey color.




True!, but smell is not as important to safety as sight :rotf:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Years ago, a municipal fire department was replaced with a private company, and they introduced, I am led to believe, the first lemon lime green colored fire engine, as they found it was much more visible at night, and in low light conditions, than is fire engine RED, or any other substitute. If I were looking for a High Vizibility florescent front sight insert, it would be a florescent Green but in a metal tube, so that the edges would remain Sharp, and not "fuzzy". Cabela's has such a sight made by Hi-Viz, I believe. I do believe its more easily seen in low light conditions than even blaze orange is. AND, because its green- it stays away from the Red in of the Spectrum where the Deer have some Rods in their eyes that see even BO in brighter light conditions than we require. Deer still are pretty much seeing Gray in the middle " colors of the light spectrum. And " Green"( or whatever shade of gray they see Green as) is associated by them with food, not danger. In Bright light, Blaze Orange can be clearly seen, particularly if it fluoresces, but I believe florescent Green is much easier to see in timber, and edge brush, after the green leaves are killed by the first frost. When I was hunting Wild Boar in Tennessee many years ago, I was dressed from head to toe in Blaze Orange, wearing overalls of that color and a hat. I was hunting on a hillside, in timber from a stand, waiting for the boars to move pass my stand. My friends were down on the flat near the house, watching me from about 500 yds away. When I stopped moving, they had great difficulty finding me on that hillside, even with some snow on the ground among the trees and brush. My late Friend, Don, told me about it when I came back down after killing my boar, and said as LOUD as I appeared walking away from the house that morning across the snow covered field, dress in my BO finest, He just never thought it was possible for a man my size, wearing BO clothing could be hard to spot on that hill, even at that range. It was overcast all that day, and I am sure that did not help make it easy to see me. But, today, I am absolutely convinced that florescent Green would be easily seen in those same conditions.

So, Start a MOVEMENT! Why NOT??? :hatsoff: :haha: :thumbsup:

Politics is the art of compromise, so Blaze Orange has been chosen because its effective in the widest possible range of color situations, including green leaves and grasses. But that doesn't mean the decision is correct. And I can't think of any reason why the rules can't provide for wearing Florescent green in the woods, after the first frost as a legal alternative. Hunters are not the stupid people some urban folks think we are. I have not met a one of them that wants to volunteer to be " accidentally Shot". :shocked2: :youcrazy: :blah: :rotf: :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[rabjr]

Funny when my Uncle was Deputy Chief of the local fire dept, they received a grant for a new tanker from the government but with the stipulation it had to be painted green. All the guys hated that tanker. :haha: Some how, years later, I don't remember the full story, not sure if it was because it was being rebuilt or what but they made sure it got repainted to red, :haha:

 

[olgreenhead]

According to the CFAB =conservation fund advisory board's legal council in NY and a study done by the Wayne County Sportsmen's Federation a few years back. NY with their volunteer wearing of BO has a higher % of hunters wearing BO than the surrounding states.
You can search the CFAB meeting reports on the DEC web site.
I once argued that the DEC's paperwork which included self inflicted wounds & the wearing of BO.
One self inflicted wound was with a ML in a tree stand,the column for BO indicated a NO in caps a larger font and in bold, as were the other NO's.
You can't regulate stupid no matter what the conservative sportsmen & those who feel a new law is always needed to save us from ourselves.
A large % of the people shot are in the process of violating a regulation already.

If BO was made law in NY everyone entering the woods/field would have to be wearing BO hikers,hunters,fishermen,loggers & dog walkers.

Sportsmen need to understand that all their "we gotta have another law" has just about regulated us out of existence.

Every forum I visit has the same discussions & same arguments. Sportsmen waste more time whining about regulations and the lack of being governed while in the midst of moaning about to much government. I just don't understand and never will the cry for more government from sportsmen.

Sportsmen should be spending their time to modify duplication in existing regulations to cut government spending.
Art

 

[Deadeye]

California with all it's people and hunters has no requirement for orange. I hunted there for 35 yrs. and never remember anyone getting shot while hunting. here in Utah rifle season requires 400 "
of orange on head and back but none during the muzzleloader or archery season. The only hunter that I can remember being shot here was wearing orange.
Deadeye

 

[Ron LaClair]

When I started deer hunting back in the early 50's, gun hunters wore the old red and black plaid outfits, hat, coat, and pants. Then for a year or two in the early 60's they tried bright yellow. It's been florescent orange since then. I have a orange wool cape that I wear over my PC coats and frocks. The color may not be period but the style of the cape is.

 

[jbtusa]

I always wear blaze orange during any gun season because there are hunters out there who are already drunk by 9:00 a.m.

 

[tg]

I don't see that the colored cape detracts from the PC outfit Longhunter, when you read of some of the colors that were used in the past.All it does is give the anti pc folks another "you can't ever be PC" line of k-rap to spew.

 

[Robby]

Sportsmen need to understand that all their "we gotta have another law" has just about regulated us out of existence.

Every forum I visit has the same discussions & same arguments. Sportsmen waste more time whining about regulations and the lack of being governed while in the midst of moaning about to much government. I just don't understand and never will the cry for more government from sportsmen.

Sportsmen should be spending their time to modify duplication in existing regulations to cut government spending.
Art

Well put Olgreenhead!
Robby

 

[rabjr]

If BO was made law in NY everyone entering the woods/field would have to be wearing BO hikers,hunters,fishermen,loggers & dog walkers.

During hunting season we have this law. Any non-hunter in the woods for whatever reason has to wear orange.

I had a guy riding a buckskin horse wearing a brown coat with that white sheep skin trim. Come slowly riding by me during shotgun season. :youcrazy: I said politely, excuse me but, it's hunting season and your required to be wearing an orange vest and If that was my horse I would drape some orange on it too. Well...I got a bunch of bleeps back telling me how we hunters think we own the place. :shocked2: I was shocked, and said excuse me but we hunters pay a lot of taxes in order to BUY this land, that we hunters are more than glad to share with you, you get to to use this State property bought by sportsman's money 8 months of the year, not bothered by anyone. We get to use it for 4 short months and we bought it.

Now it is shotgun deer season and you are not complying with the rules by not wearing orange, I thought I would let you know, what you do with that info, is your business. He left, next thing I know the horse society whatever was trying to stop Sunday hunting in the State which got defeated.

We can hunt a half hour before sunup and half hour after sundown. I'm interested i States that have no orange law, do you have to stop at sundown, start at sunup?

 

[Onojutta]

I certainly agree with the visibility of flourescent green and am aware of its application with fire trucks. However, I'm not sure it would ever catch on with hunting because of the fact that it is green and the contrast issues with all the surrounding green in the woods, even if it is much brighter.

I also believe that blaze orange really works. This past season I spent a morning watching a field. At the far end of the field (about 400 yards) I saw this little bright dot that looked to be illuminating it's own light about a half hour before sun-up. I couldn't figure out what it was. Best guess was a chem-light that someone left the night before. Anyway, as the sun came up and I was able to see definition amidst the darkness surrounding this light, I slowly began to make out the silhoutte of a hunter. And that's what it turned out to be. I was really surprised that his orange vest was so visible in so much darkness.

Anyway, I sense the issue of regulating and more laws heating up in this thread. Just want to throw out there that I started this thread out of curiosity about what the guys do about BO who like to hunt period correct, how they comply where it is required and how they do so with regard to PC, not because I think it should be a requirement or a non-requirement or anything else. Just purely curious how guys like NWTF and others who have shown us do it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I hate regulations, more than you can ever know. I only made my suggestion because I saw a constant pattern of hunting accidents, where the shooter claims to not have seen the hunting partner he shot, during rabbit, and Pheasant hunts. I knew about the record achieved at the State hunting preserves, and while I didn't want upland game hunters wearing vests, as the state requires, I thought wearing a BO hat was not asking too much.

I proposed a modification of Rules, to allow florescent green to be worn in those areas where Frost kills off the leaves, and leaves a brown and gray background during hunting seasons. Obviously, this won't work in most Southern States, or in areas that have mostly Evergreens.

The key to visibility is CONTRAST. I thought by suggesting this alternative, " Legal" clothing attire, the current regulations would be less onerous to those who now object. Florescent Green would not be particularly visible against a brightly lighted snow background, either. Again, CONTRAST. But in overcast areas, and in woods, it is easier to see than BO.

I don't like Nanny state laws either. But I HAVE BEEN SHOT AT ON PURPOSE when wearing Blaze Orange, by some drunk at long range, using a high powered rifle. I have also been shot at and hit in a public Dove Hunting field( 2x same day), by some moron on the other end of the field, shooting at low birds. None of us were wearing Blaze Orange anything that day. So, until you actually have been shot at while hunting, I frankly don't think much of your complaints about a regulation that is intended to make you less of a target out there. The life you save will be your own.

Oh, one of the other H-S instructors was up in his treestand one day, deer hunting, when some upland game hunters came towards him. They were trespassing, because they were lost!, but that didn't keep them from shooting at a bird that flushed between him and the shooters. He saw what was happening, and got around behind his tree just in time for pellets to hit all around him. He intended to hail them when they came into earshot, but they were still further out when the shooting took place. I encouraged him to put BO surveyor's tape around the tree, below his platform, and above his head, to block in his camo'ed body for incidents like that, but to date, he has not taken the suggestion. He is a very died in the wool Archery hunter, and doesn't want any deer to see him at any distance. I stress that deer are more interested in movement, than color, but all my first hand accounts of having deer and other critters walk right up to me wearing BO head to toe have not persuaded him to give it a try.

Remember that there is a real mental phenomena called " Hunter's Blur", where a hunter is so anxious to SEE a deer, that he mentally "sees that deer" when its nothing more than a bush, a car or truck, or another hunter moving behind brush.

We had our first Archery Fatality in Illinois a couple of years back. Two hunters went out to their stands at night, with one hunter dropping off at his stand, and his partner walking away towards his stand. When the second man got close to his treestand, someone else was sitting in it. Rather than have an argument about whose stand it was, he walked back to tell his buddy in the first stand what had happened, and that he was going to be hunting in a secondary location. When he was within 6 feet of his friend's stand, the friend shot him through the chest with an arrow. The friend claimed he heard noise, and could swear he was shooting at a buck. It was not even first light, so he was shooting literally in the dark, and about an hour before legal hunting began. Yeah, he was violating another rule, but his buddy is still dead. Both were in camo.