TC Hawken unset trigger

[30coupe]

The set trigger on my TC Hawken is fine, but trying to use it without setting makes me want to :barf: . The first time I tried it felt like grinding through gravel before a mushy break at 10+ pounds. :shake: AWFUL! I stoned the surface of the trigger and the lock bar and the gritty feel is gone, but the pull is still way too heavy. What do I need to do to safely lighten the pull to something that I can use for hunting without pulling a muscle?

Thanks in advance!

Russ

 

[Dane]

That is by design. A TC trigger is not really made to function as a single trigger.
The easiest solution, if you like a single trigger for hunting, is to just pin in a single trigger, set up with proper leverage to make for a clean, light release. Unfortunately, your set trigger abilities will no longer be there.
I've built in the neighborhood of 50 long rifles to date, and have never seen the need for a set trigger. All of mine are pinned single triggers, set up for clean, light pulls.
Very easy, cheap, extremely reliable, and always works the same.
Hope that helps.

 

[MSW]

I'm afraid that Dane is right ... I had the same problem with my Renegade, and I've pretty much given up using the front trigger by itself - pretty dreadful would be putting it charitably.

having said that, I am given to understand that there is a drop- in replacement made by R.E. Davis. here's a link:
http://www.redaviscompany.com/1007.html

now, I've not put one in my Renegade (yet) but I've used Davis triggers in other rifles and they're very nice, or at least I think so. using them unset is a boatload better than the T/C trigger.

good luck with your project - and let us know how things play out.

make good smoke!

 

[crockett]

Hey Dane, glad I'm not the only one that likes just a plain old trigger. For those "not in the know" when dane talks about a pin, it is high, hidden under the lock plate. There are a few commercially made single triggers where the pin is part of the triger plate and that is too low and creates a heavy pull.
This "high pin" the hole goes through the stock. It is hidden by the side plate and lock plate. The trigger plate is a flat piece of metal, it is held on by the tang bolt and on the back some were wedged under a mortise- no screw.
The single trigger is fool proof, nothing to break down in the field.

 

[LRB]

First reduce the sear spring power. Find a lighter one, or you can trim the one in it. Then as long as the sear nose and notch are reasonably correct in geometry, using low temp solder install a tiny steel plate behind the tumbler notch that will prevent, or almost prevent the sear from engaging. Then file the plate down until you get a safe amount of engagement. Polish every surface that moves in the lock. When soldering the plate apply the heat to the under side of the tumbler to prevent over heating the sear nose, and use a low flame. You might get away with using J&B Weld instead, but I'm not sure I would trust it.

 

[BrownBear]

My solution is quick and easy, though it will cost you $47 plus shipping. Swap out the whole trigger unit for the RE Davis Deerslayer trigger. It's a drop-in on all the guns I've changed but one. That one required me to remove a few molecules of wood from one side of the stock inlet- so little that I just scraped it off.

I'm so happy with them, I'd get rid of the original even if it worked right. The break is a crisp 3# or so, and best for me, that rear trigger is really curved and pushed back toward the rear of the trigger guard. There's no mistaking it for the straight front trigger in the heat of the moment or the height of my own stupidity. :grin:

 

[30coupe]

I looked at that one. So the unset trigger is about 3#? That sounds perfect to me. I like the set trigger for targets and maybe varmints, but I suspect 3# might be better for deer hunting. I'm glad to hear the Davis trigger is as good as advertised. I'm going to fiddle with the TC some more, then I'll probably end up with a Davis.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

...but I suspect 3# might be better for deer hunting.

I do about 90% of my deer shooting with an un-set trigger because there's usually little time to set a trigger and all that. It's almost all "still" hunting in the old use of the term (slow, quiet stalking), and shots are often at close range in the brush.... On moving deer. It's more like using a shotgun than planting your two feet in a match, setting the trigger, and aiming at your leisure. Some folks will object to that description of set trigger use, but if they depend on the set trigger where I hunt they'll be skinning excuses rather than deer.

My point is, the un-set Davis trigger is so good, you don't need the set trigger for accurate shooting, whether you have lots of time or little.

BTW- Even though the Davis write-up sezz TC, they're a drop-in for the Lyman GPR and any other Investarms double trigger I've tried.

 

[ohio ramrod]

You can lighten the trigger pull but it is a precision job. The reason your trigger pull is so heavy is that you are actually "fighting" the main spring. The angle on the tumbler notch and the sear contact point is actually slightly less than 90 degrees to ensure no accidental discharges. If you disassemble the lock and stone the angle so that it is exactly ninety degrees the lock will function smoothly and with a light pull. But if you get the angle greater than 90 degrees it will push off and not hold. I have reworked many locks this way and it is a time consuming job. :idunno:

 

[30coupe]

Well, I took her apart again this evening and snooped around in the lock. I found one of the machine screws that holds the alignment plate was loose. I don't think that was helping much! I also replaced the sear spring with a lighter one of the same length as the TC spring and lubed the bearing surfaces. It made a huge difference! The unset trigger pull is now quite passable. I don't have a trigger pull scale anymore, but I'd say it's around 3 to 4 pounds now, fairly smooth, with just a bit of over travel. It is WAY better than it was!

I have little experience with side locks, but I can see some things I would have designed a bit differently. There are a lot of parts dragging against other parts that wouldn't have to be in my opinion, but it does look relatively cheap to build and pretty robust overall.

Anyhow, thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

 

[Vaino]

On both my TC Hawken and Pecatonica Hawken, I installed a "block" for the setting {rear} trigger...making it inoperable. Then concentrated on the front trigger and achieved a #3 pull on both w/ a minimum amount of travel. Would have to look over the locks as to what I did....was a long time ago. It can be done.

All my other hunting rifles have a simple, single trigger....both of the above rifles have DSTs because that's what they're supposed to have....but they function as a single trigger.....Fred

 

[30coupe]

I can live with the minimal over travel I have now. I don't know how much I will actually use the double set feature, but for now I would prefer to have the option. Until/unless I decide to invest in the Davis trigger, I think I can live with what I have now.

 

[don hepler]

If you stop and think about how a muzzleloader is built, you'll understand the set trigger purpose. On a modern rifle, the trigger and sears are controlled by tight tolerances, because they are all joined mechanically. On a muzzleloader the lock is set into the wood, and the trigger is placed into another place in the wood. Depending on their exact location, pivot point on the trigger can vary. This, by chance, can end up with a good trigger or a bad one. On the set trigger, you are cocking the arm of the front trigger. When you pull the front trigger, it flys up and slaps the sear bar. But, when you pull the front trigger by itself, you are relying on the geometry, and pivot point, to manually push the sear bar. You've already made improvements, by reducing the amount of pressure, it takes to move the sear arm, by properly lubricating the lock. Stoning the sear and full cock notch can reduce it even more. But unless you are experienced, you could wind up with a hair trigger, or worse, mess it up completely. To avoid all this, I use the set trigger. Now it's second nature. I can cock and set the trigger in one motion. Or, pre set the trigger, then full cock when ready.

 

[30coupe]

I understand what you are saying. Actually, the set trigger mechanism is pretty ingenious when you think about it. It certainly makes up for a lot of variation that is bound to occur in this type of arm, in particular the ones that were/are made by hand. TC and the others that are making stocks with CNC machines could do a lot better on the geometry than a guy with a hammer and chisel. As it is, their machines are repeatedly creating crappy trigger geometry.

I lightened the spring that pushes against the trigger bar, polished the trigger/trigger bar mating surfaces, tightened up the internal screws, and properly lubricated the lock. All of this worked to vastly improve the trigger pull without messing with the sear. I've worked on sears on modern weapons, so I have no fear of that, but the sear didn't actually seem to be that bad. It was smooth enough that the only way I could see to lighten the trigger pull further would be to change the sear angle which has already been suggested. At this point, I don't see that step as necessary. The only issue remaining is the over travel. Changing the sear angle won't help that. Based on the design, I'm not sure there is a lot that can be done about the over travel.

Anyway, I certainly appreciate all the suggestions. I've worked on guns as long as I can remember, but my experience with muzzleloading firearms is pretty much nil. I love learning though, and I like traditional stuff. I never did abandon my recurves and longbows for wheeled arrow shooting machines. I think I'm going to like this BP stuff as well. :thumbsup:

 

[bpd303]

Good to hear you corrected the problem. A little late here but I was going to suggest that something was wrong with the lock because all of my T/Cs (4 of them) have very nice single trigger pulls without setting them.

 

[necchi]

There are a lot of parts dragging against other parts that wouldn't have to be in my opinion,

Such is the nature of the beast,
A lot can be improved with these factory locks if they are fully disassembled and all those mated surfaces polished with a very fine oil stone.
Yah Know(?), knock down all the tiny burrs, sharp edges and milling marks,,,
Something to do some winter night when it's cold out,,

 

[30coupe]

I've already done some of that, but part of the problem is the size of the bearing surfaces. If there were bosses on the sides of the trigger bar to minimize contact, it would make for much smoother operation. I have used thin teflon washers on the sides of the hammer and trigger of Smith and Wesson revolvers when doing an action job on them, but the tolerances on such a weapon are much closer than those on the TC lock/trigger system, so such thin washers would probably help little.

All things considered, I'm pretty pleased with what I've done thus far. For as heavy and gritty as it was to start with, it is pretty light and silky now.

 

[don hepler]

You could probably get a little more reduction, if you change the main spring. I go to hardware store and buy springs that are the same diameter, but the wire diameter, is a few thousandths smaller. I cut them to the same length. It will slow the hammer speed down, but reduce trigger pull. TC springs are coil, so it should be easy.
I've never tried it on a TC, but do it on my lever guns.

 

[30coupe]

I have some gun springs I could use from the days when I had a gunshop, but I think it is okay at this point. Thanks for the hint anyway. I thought about doing that, but I'll try it as is for now. I still haven't had an opportunity to make it go boom yet, so I just seem to have to find something to tinker with, lol. All the horror stories I have read on here about hickory ramrods through the hand prompted me to pick up a TC solid aluminum ramrod yesterday, so I busied myself cutting that to length last night. Wind chill was -29 this morning, so I'll have to wait a few more days the way it looks. :cursing:

 

[LRB]

Aluminum becomes abrasive to the muzzle crown. Be sure to use a muzzle protector with it.