SxS flintlocks smoothbores

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum:

3Setters

40 Cal
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
117
Reaction score
92
Location
Mountains of Central Pa
Love the pic Feltwad posted of is sxs flintlock smoothbores, now I need to know more. Were they a common hunting weapon, and if so what period of time? Was this something mostly found in England, or did it spread out from there. Were good shooters really able to get off two shots at flying game? Or rabbits?
 

Feltwad

45 Cal.
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
906
Shooting flying became popular in England and the Continent from the 1780s till the beginning of the percussion era . One of the main gun makers were John Manton and his brother Joseph Manton who produced guns with short sxs barrels of 30 inches in length , the use of these short sxs barrels is well explained in Peter Hawkers diaries volume one and two of which he often shot a left and right at flying game
Feltwad
 

3Setters

40 Cal
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
117
Reaction score
92
Location
Mountains of Central Pa
I'm confused, shooting flying birds was popular until the beginning of the percussion era? People lost interest in wing shooting once they had percussion guns? When did gunning over pointing dogs become popular?
 

Grenadier1758

Cannon
Joined
Oct 9, 2004
Messages
6,751
Reaction score
3,610
Location
St. Louis, MO
Shooting flying became popular in England and the Continent from the 1780s till the beginning of the percussion era . One of the main gun makers were John Manton and his brother Joseph Manton who produced guns with short sxs barrels of 30 inches in length , the use of these short sxs barrels is well explained in Peter Hawkers diaries volume one and two of which he often shot a left and right at flying game
Feltwad
I think Feltwad left out, "Shooting flying (with flint lock sxs shotguns) became ...". Then during the percussion era shooting flying birds became popular using percussion sxs shotguns.
 

Feltwad

45 Cal.
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
906
I'm confused, shooting flying birds was popular until the beginning of the percussion era? People lost interest in wing shooting once they had percussion guns? When did gunning over pointing dogs become popular?
My misunderstanding I thought it was flintlocks that was the question .
Well lets start again shooting flying more less started around the 1780 s using sxs flintlocks with barrels of approximately 30 inches long these were the most used gun for game shooting till the percussion period of 1820 and still used after that time .The percussion period in its infant stage began with Forsythe patent of approx. 1807 which was followed by different types of ignition till the true percussion cap Shooting flying was the main type of shooting from the flintlock too the breech loader this type of shooting was practise for driven shooting known has battue shooting , also for walking up and over pointers or setters this was known has covert shooting For covert shooting guns were shorter in length and called covert guns still sxs the idea of shorter barrels for these guns was for better movement when shooting in thick cover
Shooting over dogs although it started in the flintlock period is still popular today most of the old breeds are replaced with the German Short Hair Pointer here in the UK the main difference to the States is that it is sporting to shoot game flying to shoot game sitting is frowned upon and does happen and known has pot hunting it is just the same for shooting winged game on the continent but totally different in the states where most will only shoot a sitting bird
Hope this has explained the basics some will say different but know offence
Feltwad
A early flintlock sxs by Ketland
100_2176.JPG


French sxs flintlock
P1010005.JPG


English sxs percussion
P1010003.JPG
 
Last edited:

martin9

36 Cl.
MLF Supporter
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
57
Don't know where you get the US shooting sitting birds thing. I grew up quail hunting over pointers and still do, I don't know anyone who "only shoots sitting birds" We never shoot sitting birds...my dogs are trained to hold point and to flush when I tell em'.
 

Spence10

Cannon
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
7,767
Reaction score
1,385
Location
Kentucky
Don't know where you get the US shooting sitting birds thing. I grew up quail hunting over pointers and still do, I don't know anyone who "only shoots sitting birds" We never shoot sitting birds...my dogs are trained to hold point and to flush when I tell em'.
Absolutely. Feltwad has had that mistaken opinion for a long time, and will not give it up.

And shooting [flying] over dogs was done quite early in the colonies.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA AND AMERICAN GENERAL GAZETTE
December 29, 1766
WANTED
A Pointer or Setter, tolerably well broke, or a springing Spaniel very much under Command. Any one who has such a Dog, and would be willing to take a Good Price for him, may apply to.

The Pennsylvania Gazette
April 12, 1750
LOST or stolen, a large young dog, of the pointer kind, his ears and head brown or liver colour'd, with a little white in the middle of his face,

The Pennsylvania Gazette
June 22, 1738
LOST or Stolen within these two Weeks, a DOG of the Pointer kind, Brown or Liver colour'd and White, pretty much mottled, with a Collar on which was engrav'd SAMUEL JENKINS.

Spence
 
Last edited:

pilot

36 Cl.
Joined
Jan 8, 2021
Messages
93
Reaction score
88
Location
Missouri
And nothing is quite like shooting quail over a good English Setter or a Brittany Spaniel. That is also how I was raised, but unfortunately the times change and the opportunity to do so has passed me by.
 

Robby

62 Cal.
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,170
Reaction score
874
Location
NYSSR
"as easy as shooting a sitting duck", idiom originated in Britain.
Robby
 
  • Like
Reactions: smo

Feltwad

45 Cal.
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
906
Don't know where you get the US shooting sitting birds thing. I grew up quail hunting over pointers and still do, I don't know anyone who "only shoots sitting birds" We never shoot sitting birds...my dogs are trained to hold point and to flush when I tell em'.
Absolutely. Feltwad has had that mistaken opinion for a long time, and will not give it up.

And shooting [flying] over dogs was done quite early in the colonies.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA AND AMERICAN GENERAL GAZETTE
December 29, 1766
WANTED
A Pointer or Setter, tolerably well broke, or a springing Spaniel very much under Command. Any one who has such a Dog, and would be willing to take a Good Price for him, may apply to.

The Pennsylvania Gazette
April 12, 1750
LOST or stolen, a large young dog, of the pointer kind, his ears and head brown or liver colour'd, with a little white in the middle of his face,

The Pennsylvania Gazette
June 22, 1738
LOST or Stolen within these two Weeks, a DOG of the Pointer kind, Brown or Liver colour'd and White, pretty much mottled, with a Collar on which was engrav'd SAMUEL JENKINS.

Spence
Well I am pleased to see that there are still people that shoot sporting birds but how many times in the forums have people said they shoot sitting birds
Yes shooting flying was known but the question was sxs flintlocks for which I replied previous to that it was long single barrel flintlock has for dog adverts this was also common here in the UK by dog handlers and most dogs that were stolen were returned to the owner for a small fee. In my research I have obtained documents of several sporting estates and also newspaper adverts confirming this which resulted in many that were found guilty sent to the colonies . No offence .
Feltwad
 

3Setters

40 Cal
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
117
Reaction score
92
Location
Mountains of Central Pa
Wow, did I stir the hornets nest. Hopefully next season I'll have some good videos of missing birds with a smoothbore like I got this year hunting with a modern weapon
 

bud in pa

40 Cal.
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Messages
438
Reaction score
246
The only time I shot sitting birds was with my 22, and head shots only!
 

Robby

62 Cal.
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,170
Reaction score
874
Location
NYSSR
‘England and America are two countries separated by the same language’, Shaw.
Feltwad, please, whether flintlock, percussion, modern centerfire double barreled shotgun, shooting flying game birds is the norm in America and shooting sitting birds would be looked upon the same as in Britain. Kabeesh?
Robby
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
246
Reaction score
198
Location
Aberdeen, South Dakota
Wowza. Feltwad knows his SXS's, but he sure doesn't have the slightest clue about hunting in the USA. Perhaps he is mistaken because of our turkey hunting, which is quite likely the most pure American form of hunting and bird that we have. Most everything else is shared from common ancestry. It was also very close to being our national bird, as I'm sure many know.

Now here is the bizarre part. It used to be common place in the past to shoot flying turkeys. It was always common to shoot them on the ground, but it was considered "pot shooting" as Feltwad put it. I don't know when that flipped. Likely the late 1800's, when turkey calls were being developed by the likes of men we may never see again. Suddenly it was found that you could trick a bird to coming to you, which is far more difficult than kicking it out of some brush, and shooting it.

P.S. Most of our upland game like grouse, quail, and those dang chineese pheasant are shot flying, and always have been.
 

William Lincoln

40 Cal
MLF Supporter
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
228
Reaction score
276
Location
New Mexico/Florida
And turkeys are not to be shot on the roost-- the idea is that game birds in motion is
the ethical target. These fowling pieces are so beautiful. Pedersoli has some replicas
at tall timber prices. But they are like works of art. I just wonder as to how good the
barrels were from a safety standpoint. I can just visualize one of those on the moors
with the Hound of Baskerville baying at the moonlight. Spooky.
 

Feltwad

45 Cal.
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
906
Wowza. Feltwad knows his SXS's, but he sure doesn't have the slightest clue about hunting in the USA. Perhaps he is mistaken because of our turkey hunting, which is quite likely the most pure American form of hunting and bird that we have. Most everything else is shared from common ancestry. It was also very close to being our national bird, as I'm sure many know.

Now here is the bizarre part. It used to be common place in the past to shoot flying turkeys. It was always common to shoot them on the ground, but it was considered "pot shooting" as Feltwad put it. I don't know when that flipped. Likely the late 1800's, when turkey calls were being developed by the likes of men we may never see again. Suddenly it was found that you could trick a bird to coming to you, which is far more difficult than kicking it out of some brush, and shooting it.

P.S. Most of our upland game like grouse, quail, and those dang chineese pheasant are shot flying, and always have been.
Yes I have not been to the States but I would not say that I do not have a clue on game shooting in the States but the same goes for shooters in the States who do not have a clue on game shooting here in the UK There are pot hunters on both sides of the pond but in the States it is more talked about in forums .Has I have said before game shooting in both countries are totally different in many aspects that mean the same game management are just one and how shooting is done but at the end of the day hopefully we are all muzzle loading sportsmen and each to his own .
LETS GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT SXS FLINTLOCK SHOTGUNS
Feltwad

Driven Pheasant shoot
IMG_0376.JPG
 
Last edited:

Robby

62 Cal.
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,170
Reaction score
874
Location
NYSSR
Feltwad, If you would be so kind as to send me one of those vintage flintlock doubles, a Ketland or Mortimer would be fine, I'd be happy to test its' merits on some American birds on the wing, and of course I would send you a full report.
Robby
 
Top