Spanish 1757 Replica Musket

[Manchac]

I recently bought a used, but never fired, replica of the Spanish 1757 musket and an as-bought photo is attached. The posts on this forum about similar muskets, and diagnosing/correcting flintlock issues, have been extremely interesting and useful and one of the posters that I contacted suggested I post about mine. The barrel is engraved with 18.2 mm (0.716 bore), Ardesa (the manufacturer), and Spain. I think the appearance is very historically accurate which was the key objective. But I also wanted to occasionally shoot it so I completely disassembled and cleaned it, then did some polishing of the bore and parts of the lock. The cock would not fully open the frizzen so I reshaped the frizzen spring to not rise up at the tail end. The ramrod had been cut off shorter than the barrel length where it hit the forward lock bolt, so I got a longer ramrod and reduced the diameter of the last few inches so it can fit past the bolt. I was surprised to find that the touch hole went in at an angle of about 30 degrees off normal, to avoid the breech plug, but it fired nicely every time in its one trip to the range so far.

The seller recalled that it was bought new from Dixie Gun Works about a dozen years ago. If anyone knows when they carried this musket I would like to know. I got a copy of their 2009 catalog and it was not in that one. This project is still a work and education in progress as the lock does not fit into the stock or against the barrel as well as I'd like, the cock is not aimed straight at the pan, and the frizzen does not seal the pan as well as it should. And sometimes after firing, the sear will not engage the tumbler until the trigger is pushed forward or the cock is brought back then forward then back again. It doesn't do this outside the stock so I suspect some kind of stock/trigger/sear interference. So I'll be searching this forum for more useful advice to help me address these issues in the future.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Looks like a pretty nice musket. It is hard to diagnose things when the gun is not in hand, however, it sounds like the trigger is binding on the wood. Perhaps the slot needs to be examined and widen a little. Also make sure the sear spring is putting adequate pressure on the sear. Don't always assume the frizzen spring is too strong if the frizzen does not open all the way. It may be rebound and the spring is actually too weak. You cannot see rebound. The way to detect it is to put a piece of tape on the frizzen spring where the foot of the frizzen will hit when it is open. Fire the lock and look for dimpling in the tape. If there is a mark, then the frizzen opened all the way but bounced back and the spring is too weak. If there are no marks then it may be the spring is too hard or the toe of the frizzen is too large causing too much friction. If the flintcock is only slightly misaligned with the frizzen face, I would leave it alone. If not, it may be the flintcock is not seated on the tumbler correctly. You can bend the flint cock if needed but do so with heat. Don't try to cold bend it. The fit of the frizzen to the pan can usually be fixed by filing the top of the pan or stoning the bottom of the frizzen. If the lock plate is hardened, you will have to stone the pan as well. Diamond files can also be used. Use some sort of transfer paste like Prussian blue to coat lightly coat the bottom of the frizzen, then close it to see where it hits the pan and stone off the high spots.

dave

 

[OldRust]

I can't help with the lock mechanics but I'll go through my Dixie catalog collection this evening to see if I can find your musket. I have almost a complete collection from the first years when the catalogs were more like pamphlets.

Thanks
O.R.

 

[Manchac]

Thanks Dave. Good tip on the tape. I recorded it at 240 fps with my iPhone and it was definitely not rebounding. It has worked fine since I reshaped and re-tempered the frizzen spring. Good to know the cock alignment is not critical so I'll leave that alone if it continues to give good sparks. I did compensate by installing the flint aligned more with the frizzen than with the cock jaws. The trigger moves freely without the lock installed, and does fine when pulled to fire, but the trigger or sear is likely getting hung up on the wood when the cock goes fully forward, either from firing or just manually released and lowered. I plan to use the transfer paste technique to investigate this further as it is annoying.

 

[Manchac]

That would be great O.R.! I think muskets similar to this were sold in the US around the Bicentennial and for a while thereafter. The seller recalled it being 10-12 years ago, but I wonder if it may be older.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Manchac

I believe I was the one who you suggested posting your gun on the Forum. LOL Great pic of you firing it. I too have one in unfired condition I need to get out to the range. I'll have to check mine out to see if there are any issues similar to what you mention that will need fixes.
Overall, it is indeed a well made musket. They are considered somewhat rare and seldom come up for sale. Thanks for posting.

OLdRust: I think you will have better luck checking out your Dixie catalogs from the 1980's (?)

Rick

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks for posting! That is an interesting musket!

The real authority here is @rickystl . However, it is my understanding that the Ardesa replicas were made in 1976, our bicentennial year, to commemorate the Spanish contribution to our victory in the War for Independence. I don't know how they were distributed, and I did not know Dixie carried them. I do know that Dixie introduced a "Spanish musket" fifteen or so years ago, made for them by Pedersoli. This is basically a Charleville with different lock markings, a different top jaw screw, a different trigger guard assembly and different forward barrel band. Mountings on the Dixie Spanish musket are brass-colored, but I have it on pretty good authority that these are plated or powder-coated steel.

I saw a musket like yours at the Castillo in St. Augustine a few years ago. I attended their "Cannon School" and "Musket School" programs, and one of the park guys had an Ardesa musket to show. Most of the armory at the Castillo is stocked with Besses, though, for use in their living history programs.

It would be great if Pedersoli would take an interest and make a better reproduction of the M1757. There are more Spanish reenactors, and would-be reenactors, out there than many realize. There are old Spanish forts, missions, and presidios all around the Gulf Coast, Texas and the southwest, and well up into California, and many of these facilities have active 18th century living history programs. The soldados could use proper weaponry.

Anyway, thanks for showing your musket!

Notchy Bob

 

[Manchac]

Thanks Notchy Bob. I believe another Spanish manufacturer named Mendi produced a similar musket, but I don't know If one manufacturer took over from the other at a later time, or they cooperatively or competitively produced them in parallel, or what. I would like to know about that if anyone has info. My other musket is a Pedersoli Charleville replica, which I like, and I would have gladly bought a M1757 replica from them, but since my interest is primarily from a living history perspective the historical inaccuracies were a concern. I think you are spot-on about the re-enactors and can add Clark's Virginia militia and their Illinois Campaign to the list.

 

[hawkeye2]

For those willing to take the chance Middlesex Village Trading Company offers an Indian 1757.

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MS1757.SHTML

 

[OldRust]

Manchac Starting with the 1955 Dixie catalog I only found two muskets that resemble yours. In the 2013 Dixie catalog the Italian Pedersoli Spanish Musket is a dead ringer for yours as mentioned by Notchy Bob. The other I found that I thought was similar is in the 1971 Dixie and listed as a # 79S Flintlock Musket. The caliber is not the same as yours and when I enlarged the photo's I see the endcap is different . It's tough to tell from Dixie's photo.
I have almost all of Dixie's catalog's but I'm missing a few so it may have been listed for only a year or so.

Thanks
O.R.

 

[Manchac]

Thanks O.R! My barrel is about 43.25". Which issues are you missing?

 

[OldRust]

Thanks O.R! My barrel is about 43.25". Which issues are you missing?

1967, 1972-73 , 1986, 1988, 1991

Thanks
O.R.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks Notchy Bob. I believe another Spanish manufacturer named Mendi produced a similar musket, but I don't know If one manufacturer took over from the other at a later time, or they cooperatively or competitively produced them in parallel, or what. I would like to know about that if anyone has info. My other musket is a Pedersoli Charleville replica, which I like, and I would have gladly bought a M1757 replica from them, but since my interest is primarily from a living history perspective the historical inaccuracies were a concern. I think you are spot-on about the re-enactors and can add Clark's Virginia militia and their Illinois Campaign to the list.

Thank you for your comments, Manchac! I was not aware of Mendi as a manufacturer of this type of musket.

I had forgotten about Clark's Virginia Militia, and appreciate the reminder. The monograph in this link may be of interest: Spanish Weapons in the American Revolution. This is from The American Society of Arms Collectors Bulletin 91:1-9 (2005). It is a really cursory overview, but it is about the best I have found online.

There used to be a "Soldados" forum on Yahoo Groups, specifically for Spanish colonial reenactors in North America, but I had not visited it in quite a while, and it appears to have folded. Too bad... They were an interesting bunch.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Hello. As I live in Spain, if you put the photographs of the manufacturer's stamps and the Official Test Bank of Eibar (Spain) I can tell you in which year that 1757 model musket was manufactured and tested. Mendi manufactured it first than Ardesa and that of Mendi had a very good finish. Its caliber is the original (18.2 mm), not the Pedersoli copy. The stamps are on the side of the barrel, near the breech, or below. Although according to my data the original musket was 18.3 mm (0.720) caliber, equivalent to a 12 bore. But both, Mendi (later Dikar) and Ardesa are factories that are close in the Basque region (Spain). As is known throughout the 18th century, the French muskets were of caliber 0,690" (17,5 mm), the Spanish ones of 0.720" (18,3 mm) and the British Brown Bess of 0.75" (19,05 mm).
Greetings from Spain.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Hermano

Thanks for shedding more light on the manufacturing of these guns. The dates of manufacture for these Spanish replicas is still somewhat clouded in mystery. I was told that Navy Arms received a small quantity of the original Spanish made guns for resale. Maybe Dixie never actually sold the Spanish made guns. Don't know. I believe mine is possibly one of the original Mendi made guns. When I originally posted my gun on the Forum here (6-years ago !!) this is what you mentioned:
"It is a replica of the Spanish musket Model 1757, manufactured in Eibar in 1983. The gauge is the original, (0.716), equivalent to 12 bore. Greater than the French muskets of the time (0.69), and lower that the British Brown Bess (0.75). The weapon was manufactured by MENDI and is of good quality. It is a highly sought in Spain for reenactment "Independence War" (1808-1812) against Napoleón Bonaparte."
The bore of my gun measures exactly 0.716 also. The fit and finish on mine are excellent.

Thanks again for the additional information.

Rick

 

[toot]

Hi Manchac

I believe I was the one who you suggested posting your gun on the Forum. LOL Great pic of you firing it. I too have one in unfired condition I need to get out to the range. I'll have to check mine out to see if there are any issues similar to what you mention that will need fixes.
Overall, it is indeed a well made musket. They are considered somewhat rare and seldom come up for sale. Thanks for posting.

OLdRust: I think you will have better luck checking out your Dixie catalogs from the 1980's (?)

RickView attachment 75354

WOW!! complete with the bayonete!!~

 

[rickystl]

WOW!! complete with the bayonete!!~

Actually, the bayonet is an India made copy of the Spanish one. But someone went to the trouble of having it fit properly. So you might think this gun was with a re-enactor at some point (?) But one look down the bore and pan area there is no evidence it was ever fired. The frizzen looks like it's never been test sparked. LOL

Rick

 

[Manchac]

Thanks Hermano. I attached a photo of the barrel markings. I would love to know more about the gun, dates, history, Ardesa, etc. Did Ardesa buy Mendi out or buy the rights to the musket design? Did Ardesa make the entire gun or just the barrel? Thanks!

 

[Manchac]

Even the smaller internal parts seem historically accurate compared to period drawings.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Hello partners. This musket was manufactured by Ardesa in tested in 1983 (this is known by the letter C*2) which corresponds to all weapons manufactured and tested in Spain that year. Ardesa assembled it, but it is possible that the barrel and especially the lock were already manufactured by Mendi a few years earlier. Mendi and Jukar are two factories that merged in 1980 to give rise to DIKAR (joining the syllables of the names of the two factories, Di Kar emerges). All their muzzleloading guns sold in Spain, but mostly in the USA. Being imported by CVA. The lock to that musket is good. Maybe the frizzen spring needs to be tweaked and fine-tuned. It is also stamped on the barrel as if it were a 12 gauge muzzleloading shotgun (by stamp C 12). In case someone wants to load it with black powder and a load of pellets (shots) or posts (buckshot), in addition, of course, with a 0.690 or 0.678 spherical bullet, in paper cartridge or with the bullet wrapped in a patch.
From Dikar I have the Frontier rifle (in caliber 45) in flintlock, and the "Mountain" of 58 in percussion.
I leave the following link so that all members of the forum know the year of manufacture and testing of Spanish weapons.

Annex: Marks and punches of the eibarresa armory
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Marcas_y_punzones_de_la_armería_eibarresa
Greetings from Spain.