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Odd probably French musket

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I bought this with the double barrel I sold thinking it was a 1777. Now I'm not so certain but it could be more interesting. The side plate, butt plate, stock and barrel band all look 1777. The trigger guard is similar but is one piece instead of two and has no finger ridges. Barrel has a pin underneath for the bayonet catch from a French model 1774. If you look at the side plate mortice you can see it's been modified. I believe what we are looking at is the transition between models ca 1777 it has a 1774 barrel and trigger guard modified to fit the shape of the 1777 but still one piece. The barrel has the flats like a French musket unlike the round American or Belgian barrels of the time. It does have a Belgian ELG but that just means they've used it at some point. I've seen Brown Besses with that mark also. This musket had a really odd lock in it but the internals did not match the impressions in the inletting from the original. A 1777 lock will fit and match though I don't have one to show right now. Any thoughts?
 

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The Belgian ELG is a proof mark, not an ownership marking. It is probably a Belgian copy of a French musket.
 
The Belgian ELG is a proof mark, not an ownership marking. It is probably a Belgian copy of a French musket.
I will gladly believe it is if you can find any kind of proof that the Belgians ever made anything similar to this. Every Belgian copy I've seen has features dissimilar to the French musket. I agree about the Belgian ELG being a proof mark. When arms went to Belgium they were reprooved. It does not mean the Bess was made by them. It also had the standard British marks. It just meant The Bess was used by the Belgians why or in what circumstance I do not know. This French musket could be Belgian but I sure can't find one similar if you can find one I'd appreciate it.
 
I will gladly believe it is if you can find any kind of proof that the Belgians ever made anything similar to this. Every Belgian copy I've seen has features dissimilar to the French musket. I agree about the Belgian ELG being a proof mark. When arms went to Belgium they were reprooved. It does not mean the Bess was made by them. It also had the standard British marks. It just meant The Bess was used by the Belgians why or in what circumstance I do not know. This French musket could be Belgian but I sure can't find one similar if you can find one I'd appreciate it.
The Belgians did indeed make Brown Bess muskets under contract for England, that fact has been established for a long time now. They also made their own version of the French musket, and even made some for the French during the Napoleonic era, IIRC.
 
The Belgians did indeed make Brown Bess muskets under contract for England, that fact has been established for a long time now. They also made their own version of the French musket, and even made some for the French during the Napoleonic era, IIRC.
Of course they did. I have a Liege contract short land. The Belgian marks are very different then. I've seen later Belgian Besses with just the ELG for a late India Pattern. That doesn't explain why you'll occasionally come across a British make musket with British proofs but also later added ELG mark
 
Just to clarify a bit more I want you all to see how this musket started being built as a 1774 and was updated. Notice how the side plate on the 1774 is more S shaped. This is visible in the side plate mortice. You can see how it was changed.
 

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Now notice how the 1774 trigger guard is identical to the 1777 in the front but differs in that it is one piece, has no finger ridges, and ends in a point.
 

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Of course they did. I have a Liege contract short land. The Belgian marks are very different then. I've seen later Belgian Besses with just the ELG for a late India Pattern. That doesn't explain why you'll occasionally come across a British make musket with British proofs but also later added ELG mark
Maybe they reproofed it. Maybe they forged British markings as they were known to do. If you already know so much why ask?
 
Maybe they reproofed it. Maybe they forged British markings as they were known to do. If you already know so much why ask?
because as it is it shouldn't exist. I've never heard of a French musket that between models used parts from a previous one. I'm trying to see if anyone on here knows about any other transitional models like this so I know if this was built this way or was a period modification (for instance is this a 1774 that was converted to the model 1777 when the new model came out or is this a cobbled together piece from the French Revolution that utilized whatever parts were on hand to make a functional arm. In short, I want to find out more about it to know if I should restore it as a 1777 or 1774 or some of both.
 
I bought this with the double barrel I sold thinking it was a 1777. Now I'm not so certain but it could be more interesting. The side plate, butt plate, stock and barrel band all look 1777. The trigger guard is similar but is one piece instead of two and has no finger ridges. Barrel has a pin underneath for the bayonet catch from a French model 1774. If you look at the side plate mortice you can see it's been modified. I believe what we are looking at is the transition between models ca 1777 it has a 1774 barrel and trigger guard modified to fit the shape of the 1777 but still one piece. The barrel has the flats like a French musket unlike the round American or Belgian barrels of the time. It does have a Belgian ELG but that just means they've used it at some point. I've seen Brown Besses with that mark also. This musket had a really odd lock in it but the internals did not match the impressions in the inletting from the original. A 1777 lock will fit and match though I don't have one to show right now. Any thoughts?

I don’t believe this is a french musket.

The trigger guard is not of the 1774 or 1777 pattern.

The 1774 guard had a bishops hat final that tapered a lot towards the end, the one on your musket is just rounded, this is a common feature of other European muskets such as Belgian, Prussian and Russian. The 1774 guard was also two pieces riveted together, this one appears to be a single guard, while i have seen 1774 guards that are not riveted, for the most part the documented patterns are two pieces.

1777 musket guard had finger ridges and was in two pieces.

Were previous model parts used up on new guns, absolutely, this was french policy from the reign of King Louie, however you don’t see it much on anything after the year 9 model. You see this often on earlier guns 1717-1754 and 1763 - 1774. For example, it’s not uncommon to find 1728 parts on a 1746 musket, specifically the locks. Dates and markings on the markings will show it as a 1746. Another example is the 1766 and 1770 patterns, 1770 pattern muskets often have 1766 guards and hardware with rounded locks.

Another factor that tells me your musket is not a 1774 is the rear band, the rear band spring was very unique as it had a rammer spoon riveted to the underside of it and the retaining spring was posted to the opposite end, not latched like on later patterns, this is indicated of later period muskets after the 1777 period gun.

The lock panel has a well defined teat which is common feature of all copied 1777’s, it’s not rounded over until much later in the 1820’s.

The breech of the barrel looks like it has five well defined flats, this is common of the 1777 musket, we know that the Belgians were making barrels for the french after the year 9 model .

The buttstock cheek recess is more square, less curved which is what you see on the 1777. Squared cut outs were common on Belgian and Prussian muskets, the 1774 musket had well defined flutes and a wide cross section, much like the 1766.

The underside of the butt plate may reveal some markings, french markings would have a three pointed crown with SE or S markings. Belgian markings are just letters.
 
because as it is it shouldn't exist. I've never heard of a French musket that between models used parts from a previous one. I'm trying to see if anyone on here knows about any other transitional models like this so I know if this was built this way or was a period modification (for instance is this a 1774 that was converted to the model 1777 when the new model came out or is this a cobbled together piece from the French Revolution that utilized whatever parts were on hand to make a functional arm. In short, I want to find out more about it to know if I should restore it as a 1777 or 1774 or some of both.
You know the Belgians had a military and their muskets were of a french pattern the Belgians made enfield p1853 for england they made thousands of muskets for the French and yes they made the kings musket on contract 3d model aka East India pattern for the East India company
 
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