If the bent barrel causes the ball to hook, at what point does it become dangerous to the shooter, returning like a boomerang, for lack of a better term?
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Smoothbores shooting round ball really high
- Thread starter rich pierce
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rich pierce
70 Cal.
I am a mediocre offhand shooter. Makes it tough!
rich pierce
70 Cal.
I have enough trouble shooting a smoothbore with no rear sight offhand without not aiming at what I want to hit. What works for one may not always work for another.
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To each his own and I meant not criticism or disrespect. My main flint rifle shoots over 4” high at 50m so I just aim low for close encounters.
Having said that, the custom gun I’m having built will have folding rear sights to alleviate that issue. So it’s certainly not my preference.
Made for shooting around trees and corners
That was how it was finally explained in another thread and I finally understood what “bending” meant.My personal belief is that when we are bending a smoothbore barrel to shoot to the sights what we are really doing is bending back to straight, as recommended by Don Getz and others and practiced by Pedersoli and other major manufacturers.
And a humorous thought, if the bullets actually hooked would we be able to shoot around corners to get that deer behind the tree
“Bending = straightening” .
My German friends called it a Krummlauf. Too modern to post here…..
Israelis used one too, but the stock/action was hinged, not the barrel..
rich pierce
70 Cal.
These discussions are always interesting. There’s some tension between what would work best for each person responding, which obviously varies a lot, and what will work for the original requester. What works best for you may not work for me or Bob. Even great guitarists approach playing a guitar differently. Just an example.
I went shooting. When I used the sight height extender while barely seeing the top of the front sight it shot very low.
When I filed the height extender down keeping the same sight picture it started moving up as expected and got into the black.
When I removed the height extension and shot it with my normal sight picture it shot high like yesterday.
When I followed Mike’s advice (Grenadier) I could put it close to the black with the original sight. Mikey knows shooting!
I went shooting. When I used the sight height extender while barely seeing the top of the front sight it shot very low.
When I filed the height extender down keeping the same sight picture it started moving up as expected and got into the black.
When I removed the height extension and shot it with my normal sight picture it shot high like yesterday.
When I followed Mike’s advice (Grenadier) I could put it close to the black with the original sight. Mikey knows shooting!
@rich pierce, I sure wish I could shoot as well as I know how to shoot.
I saw several postings in this thread advocating the same procedure.
I saw several postings in this thread advocating the same procedure.
rich pierce
70 Cal.
I was mixed up on the difference between lifting my eye (which worked, seeing more of the front sight but not more barrel) and lifting my head and seeing more barrel (if that makes sense). I was thinking about that the wrong way because I was thinking it would be like raising the rear sight on a gun that has one. Obviously it’s not easy for me to explain sight picture.
I’m a relative newbie shooting round ball in a smoothbore with no rear sight; probably less than 300 rounds total in 3 different guns. Getting a consistent sight picture is the key for me it seems. Meanwhile we’ve learned a lot about barrel bending, controversies over balls hooking left or right, and more. I’m pleased with how it’s shooting now and plan to shoot it weekly till deer season so it becomes ingrained and I don’t have to think in the moment.
new2bp
40 Cal
- Joined
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Do it like this but use thicker cylinder and instead of pins use tiny 4-40 set screws one on each side
This way bit uglier but easy to out on/take off depending on what you plan on shooting that day
Wow, well ... that assertion is not only wrong, and defines physics, but is total BS ...
EVERY barrel maker and/or firearm maker using such barrels bends their barrels .... muzzleloader barrels or not. Every custom maker of MZL barrels (I have a list of 8 names ... you?) bends their barrels. Bobby Hoyt may have to bend every barrel send to him; as in fact he just told me a few weeks ago that that the 1st thing that he does to EVERY barrel sent to him for work, before he works on it, it so check it for straightness and to bend it straight if needed.
Many of us are using any and all of the barrels as listed , so if there were an issue or this alleged 'hook' anomaly ... well we sure would have have heard about it and have been worried about it before now!
I've bent many a barrel, MZLs or modern, smoothbore or rifle. Now take my fully tapered round 75-cal custom 60" long smoothbore barrel (no rear sight) by Greg Christian. She was off @ 50-yards, shooting way low, and you can't file down a low front sight that is already very low, and there's no rear sight to adjust, so I bent the barrel. One cannot visually see the bend in this particular barrel, but the good bend is clearly there; I know, I bent it myself, with witnessed too. Now she's a tad low @ 25, dead nuts ON @ 50 and @ 100-yards, well there I really need to 'show more barrel' or hold high(er) on the targets. No left or right variation induced. And yet wth your alleged 'hook' hypothesis, she should have continued to climb well up and off the target high! But not so ...
In fact, NONE of the many barrels I've bent for me or others display any hook at all. Me thinks you've never actually bent a barrel on purpose, because if you have studied or are knowledgeable on exterior ballistics, it's impossible to induce such an effect. May I suggest you start with Dr. Mann and if you need to look that name up ... well then it's clear you have an opinion that has the 'hook' and defies scientific fact, LOL!
In exterior ballistics, i.e., once it has left the muzzle, for the projectile itself there is only yaw, pitch and roll (or spin), where a change in any of those 3 factors requires an external/other force to induce the change. Please re-read up on Newton's 1st Law of Physics. So please tell us ... what is that phantom force that none of us are aware of? Known external forces are of course, gravity and drag, where the gravitational force always acts vertically downward on the bullet, regardless of the bullet’s orientation relative to the vertical direction, and where aerodynamic drag always acts opposite to the bullet’s direction of travel through the air.
Other factors influencing the projectile's flight are the wind, i.e., causing drag, shooting up or down hill, the temperature of the propellent as it affects the combustion, affecting the velocity and perhaps the Coriolis Effect (spinning of the Earth) if shooting a far, far long distance away. Most small arms Ballistic Tables are factored on 4 of the 6 'degrees of freedom' of the trajectory analysis, lumping the effects of pitch, yaw and roll/spin into the effect of a yaw-of-repose to account for the trajectory. But note in the interest of science and full disclosure, that in long distance artillery shooting (i.e., shooting 20-miles away or more!), they factor in all 6 DoFs as a separate variable.
You know you could also change the pitch on the buttplate to move the point of impact, versus the point of aim, right? Shotgunners of skeet and trap do this all the time. Yup, have done that too ...
rich pierce
70 Cal.
Yep. I was a stickler when I built it, trying to copy every bit of the original. It’s one of those “too late” situations.
Just shoot it upside-down. That will correct the sight-height issue. 
If it were my gun I'd shoot it with a 6 o'clock hold so as to not mess with the 60 yard accuracy. I've been shooting archery for 68 years and I gap shoot so holding under is a natural occurrence at shorter distances. I shoot that way in indoor shoots which are 20 yards. I hold on the bottom of the blue face target. So go with the long range accuracy and compensate for shorter ranges.
shaman
40 Cal
Dad was a competitive trap shooter back in the day. Vandalia was just right up the road. He had his dresser top filled with trophies. He did all that with a stock Winchester Model 12 that he picked up used. He just had a knack.
What I can tell you is that this same kind of discussion was going on with old trap shooters 60 years ago. The question of moving the sights or bending the barrel or moving your cheek weld has been thrown about like what y'all are doing endlessly at the clubhouse.
My best friend for 40 years was Bob. He was the gun editor for Gun Dog Magazine. I'd come to him with a problem like this and he'd chuckle and line out the possibilities.
But Cheese and Rice! Bending the barrel? Bob knew a guy who supposedly had an eye for it, and you could take your gun to him and he'd put it in a jig with two vertical posts and bend just the way you needed it. I never went that far.
BTW: That cheek weld idea has not been discussed, but it is how I fixed my problem with my Remington 1100 TB. When I got it, the stock was already kind of boogered. I used a belt sander and ground off the top until it fit my cheek perfectly, and shot it that way for about 20 years. Folks thought it looked funny, but I'd let them mount it and it felt like heaven.
Another thought: Stock shape and stock length are huge influencers. I have rifles set up for early season deer hunting and late season, because of the change in layers of clothing. Moving your cheek weld along a curved stock changes your sight picture.
Now I'm not saying taking a belt sander to the top of a muzzleloader is the way to go, but I would definately try adding or deleting a layer of clothing and seeing how that changes things.
What I can tell you is that this same kind of discussion was going on with old trap shooters 60 years ago. The question of moving the sights or bending the barrel or moving your cheek weld has been thrown about like what y'all are doing endlessly at the clubhouse.
My best friend for 40 years was Bob. He was the gun editor for Gun Dog Magazine. I'd come to him with a problem like this and he'd chuckle and line out the possibilities.
But Cheese and Rice! Bending the barrel? Bob knew a guy who supposedly had an eye for it, and you could take your gun to him and he'd put it in a jig with two vertical posts and bend just the way you needed it. I never went that far.
BTW: That cheek weld idea has not been discussed, but it is how I fixed my problem with my Remington 1100 TB. When I got it, the stock was already kind of boogered. I used a belt sander and ground off the top until it fit my cheek perfectly, and shot it that way for about 20 years. Folks thought it looked funny, but I'd let them mount it and it felt like heaven.
Another thought: Stock shape and stock length are huge influencers. I have rifles set up for early season deer hunting and late season, because of the change in layers of clothing. Moving your cheek weld along a curved stock changes your sight picture.
Now I'm not saying taking a belt sander to the top of a muzzleloader is the way to go, but I would definately try adding or deleting a layer of clothing and seeing how that changes things.
Best thread on smoothbore shooting, for me at least, right here.
Last week our club had a 30 yard bench shoot. Easy-peasy, I thought, and decided to use my .45 Verner style FL with the double triggers! It was a sunny day and for some reason I just could not sight it well or hit well with this rifle, the same one that I used last May (and tied first honors) at our woods walk. I don’t know if it was the lighting or my horrible cataracts (November 2nd I’m seeing the surgeon!), or a combination of all that with growing self- frustration. I was not having fun!
So, what did I do?
I withdrew from the competition roster and put my flintlock rifle and rig back in the car. I took out my .62 smoothbore Fusil de Chasse, and started having fun! I was hitting much better and became more relaxed. It turned out to be one helluva fun day, and my unofficial score was not that bad, actually.
Today I plan on really working on perfecting my aim with it. I am strangely growing more attracted to using it. Seems my vision and satisfaction are leading me into a growing smoothbore shooting interest.
Last week our club had a 30 yard bench shoot. Easy-peasy, I thought, and decided to use my .45 Verner style FL with the double triggers! It was a sunny day and for some reason I just could not sight it well or hit well with this rifle, the same one that I used last May (and tied first honors) at our woods walk. I don’t know if it was the lighting or my horrible cataracts (November 2nd I’m seeing the surgeon!), or a combination of all that with growing self- frustration. I was not having fun!
So, what did I do?
I withdrew from the competition roster and put my flintlock rifle and rig back in the car. I took out my .62 smoothbore Fusil de Chasse, and started having fun! I was hitting much better and became more relaxed. It turned out to be one helluva fun day, and my unofficial score was not that bad, actually.
Today I plan on really working on perfecting my aim with it. I am strangely growing more attracted to using it. Seems my vision and satisfaction are leading me into a growing smoothbore shooting interest.
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