Sighting-in question: where to go from here?

[zneufeld]

Finally got some sight-in time at my local range today. Lyman Great Plains flintlock, .54, .530 RB with .015 pre-lubed patch, starting with 75 gr 2f Schutzen.

Shot at 25 yards today from a "rest" (my bag is all I had). Started with a 6 o'clock hold but I was low off the paper by a few inches, so switched to a bulls eye hold. Still off the paper, and not very good groups with 75 grains (3 to 4 inches). Got slowly better (and higher) as I increased the charge.

Ran out of time when I was at 90 gr, which was the best group (in the photo), but still not great. (groups were only 3 shots each because of a couple range cease-fires and some fouling problems).
(The holes near the bullseye were from my unmentionable).

So my question is, where should I go from here? I know I will need to file the (very high) front sight at some point, but should I keep working up a load before I do that? Should I try a tighter ball/patch combo?

I have Dutch's system, so I get all the logic about changing only one parameter at a time, etc... But I don't see myself going as far as he does with measuring patch thickness and weighing balls, at least not with this rifle.

 

[Sidney Smith]

If its got an adjustable rear sight, crank it all the way down, then file down the front sight to bring up the impact point.

I shoot 80 grains of 2fg powder in my Lyman .54 flinter. I used the above method to bring the groups into the bullseye. Going higher than about 85 grains of 2fg iin a .54 caliber s simply unnecessary.

 

[fleener]

Try a .535 balls and .015 patch. I think you can tighten up your group quite a bit.

Also, leave the vodka at home while shooting, that might help as well.

Fleener

 

[Ben Meyer]

I went with the Dutch system as far as weighing balls, haven't done that yet. Id suggest shooting 5 shot groups at 50yds, and trying several different patch materials and lube combos. Figuring out what the "gun wants" takes a lot of range time, there's no way around it.

I have two. 50 cal rifles. A flintlock and a perc Hawken. The flintlock likes a .495 ball and a .014 cotton patch, Ballistol and water drylubed 7:1, 80gr 2f Swiss. The Hawken likes a .490 ball, a .018 pillow ticking patch, Ballistol and water drylubed 6:1, 80gr 2f Goex.

The point is, a LOT of time went into coming to those conclusions. Once I shot sub 2" groups at 50yds from a bench, I tapped the rear sight and filed the front on the flintlock, and the Hawken has more modern, adjustable sights, to move the group to the bullseye. That sight adjusting takes a bunch of range time as well. Theres unfortunately no easy way around it.

In a world where I can buy a new bolt action .30-06, a box or 3 of ammo and a scope and have it completely zeroed and dialed in in an hour or so, traditional muzzleloaders just ain't that.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

My Lyman does better with .535 balls/.10 patch. Also, I replaced the factory sites on mine bc the rear site was junk—wouldn’t hold still on elevation unless it was tightened way down, and it needed to be up. I like my GPR but would give a thought to how you’ll be using it, and consider new sites if it makes sense for you.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Don't make any vertical adjustments to your sights until you find the accurate load you're looking for. At least as far as filing your front sight is concerned. I know about this having replaced a couple of front sights!

 

[Brokennock]

Don't make any vertical adjustments to your sights until you find the accurate load you're looking for. At least as far as filing your front sight is concerned. I know about this having replaced a couple of front sights!

This⬆
Get some good reliable groups with load adjustments 1st.
Try a different patch thickness, try a different lube. Try a different ball diameter. Try a thin fiber "wad" between powder and patched ball.

Even more radical idea,,,,, try, less, powder. Maybe start at 55 grains, try 60, 65, and 70. My .62 smoothbore shoots great with 80 grains 3f, with one wad/ball combo,,,,,,, but shoots as well or better with more ball/wad/patch combinations at 65 grains 3f. It seems odd to me that a smaller bore rifle would need more powder to be accurate than a larger bore, rifled or smooth.
A lighter charge may not bring your p.o.i. up, but it may tighten your group.

 

[rp77469]

IME you are too close for load work. Even my Bess shoots pretty good groups at 25 yards, and it doesn't have a rear sight. If you can, try at least 50 yards as you work up a load. You will be more able to see group improvement as all the groups will spread out more.

I have a pair of GPR .54 purchased used, one factory, one a kit. The kit one I still doesn't group well as I would like: 3-4" at 50 off sandbags. I replaced the adjustable sight on the factory gun with a semi buckhorn. That one groups pretty good, 2" or so, with 100g 2f at 50y with .530 round ball and 0.012 (compressed) pillow ticking. It is ok for deer, but will never do as a target rifle. Brokennock has a great suggestion of trying a reduced load. The one I can't get to group has never been fired with less than 75 grains 2f, so that could be a good thing for me to try also.

 

[andy52]

Try a .535 balls and .015 patch. I think you can tighten up your group quite a bit.

Also, leave the vodka at home while shooting, that might help as well.

Fleener

I pretty sure that's a water bottle but I had to enlarge it to say that.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Finally got some sight-in time at my local range today. Lyman Great Plains flintlock, .54, .530 RB with .015 pre-lubed patch, starting with 75 gr 2f Schutzen.

Shot at 25 yards today from a "rest" (my bag is all I had). Started with a 6 o'clock hold but I was low off the paper by a few inches, so switched to a bulls eye hold. Still off the paper, and not very good groups with 75 grains (3 to 4 inches). Got slowly better (and higher) as I increased the charge.
So my question is, where should I go from here? I know I will need to file the (very high) front sight at some point, but should I keep working up a load before I do that? Should I try a tighter ball/patch combo?

Good advice from others is to leave the sights alone until you get a good group. I personally lower the front sight some to just make it closer to ball park. ( I make mine with fixed sights, so back sight raise is not an option) You are out of the park now. All my 54s like .535s with .018 patch. I would try .535s and start with 50 grains and go from there. Don't know if you are a seasoned flint shooter, but make sure flinching is not a factor to consider. No offense meant by that, just don't know your capabilities.
Good luck
Larry

 

[hanshi]

Also, leave the vodka at home while shooting, that might help as well.
Leave it at home wh...Are you crazy?! You know that a man has to steady his nerves!

Don't mess with sights until an accurate load is worked up. Likely you need a thicker patch, larger ball or both. No deer caliber should be sighted in at LESS than 50 yds. minimum! 25 to 30 yards is fine for squirrel calibers but not the bigger bores. Three shot groups are okay since that's a lot of shooting for just one deer.

 

[TreeMan]

Ditch the pre lubed patches. Get some real .018 pillow ticking, spit lube them with .530 balls and 80gr of 2F. I have a 54 Lyman Great Plains, 54 Mortimer and a 54 harpers ferry. All pretty much shoot well with this set up. Pre lubed patches if old will simply fall apart when shot. Shoot for groups first before you start filing sights.

 

[Eterry]

Get a few old knee high socks and fill with sand then tie the end. Makes cheap simple bags to shoot off of.

How are your patches looking? They should be almost reusable. I never had good luck with prelubed patches, but they were really old.
I don't think you need to move back until you're shooting one hole groups.

I also think you should leave the sights alone until you are happy with your results. Just burning powder will help tighten your groups to some degree. Good luck and keep shooting.

 

[necchi]

I have Dutch's system, so I get all the logic

Good,

But I don't see myself going as far as he does with measuring patch thickness and weighing balls,

Then don't, just yet.
But I would highly recommend going back and re-reading his basics.
At 25yrds with that rifle, off a bench set-up,, following just the basic aspects of the system, you should be smacking a 9 ring size group within the first 50 shots.
It's actually that simple.
If you have the system, try following those recommendations.
Guess what,(?) pre-lubed patches and starting at 75grns, is not what the system suggests.
We can help, and Dutch's system can put you in the winners circle. You've got some good advice here already, but if your going to do what you want to do while disregarding advice,well,,(?)

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

I’m seeing a few guys here (and elsewhere) nocking the pre-lubed, pre-cut patches. I believe that some of those guys have been at this long enough that they have established a very consistent method for cutting and lubing their patches. With repetition, humans can achieve pretty remarkable consistency.

Nevertheless, I’m a scientists (literally) so I definitely appreciate keeping all variables constant and only varying one at a time to see the effects that had.

In an effort to maintain reliability in terms of patch size, precut patches that are cut by a machine makes sense to me. Especially for folks who are just starting out, and thus don’t have the benefit of thousands of repetitions.

Likewise, mass-produced pre-lubed also makes sense for consistency, so long as the quality and quantity of the lube they use is acceptable. (Consistently terrible not being the goal, but consistently acceptable is.)

I am not a competition shooter, but I get orange size groupings at 50 yards using commercially available pre-lubed patches. I definitely store them in sealed containers to preserve the lubricant. I’m not retired yet so my range time is pretty limited. I have no immediate plans to switch to pillow tacking and spit or other one-at-a-time lubing routine.

Guys who have the time and dedication to really do it all legitimately PC have my high respect and admiration. For the rest of us, consistency in mass-production can be an advantage.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I would try to collect your patches and see if they are intact. A good patch should look like you could reuse it. If your patches are shredded your groups will be too.

 

[Capnball]

Finally got some sight-in time at my local range today. Lyman Great Plains flintlock, .54, .530 RB with .015 pre-lubed patch, starting with 75 gr 2f Schutzen.

Shot at 25 yards today from a "rest" (my bag is all I had). Started with a 6 o'clock hold but I was low off the paper by a few inches, so switched to a bulls eye hold. Still off the paper, and not very good groups with 75 grains (3 to 4 inches). Got slowly better (and higher) as I increased the charge.

Ran out of time when I was at 90 gr, which was the best group (in the photo), but still not great. (groups were only 3 shots each because of a couple range cease-fires and some fouling problems).
(The holes near the bullseye were from my unmentionable).

View attachment 80579

So my question is, where should I go from here? I know I will need to file the (very high) front sight at some point, but should I keep working up a load before I do that? Should I try a tighter ball/patch combo?

I have Dutch's system, so I get all the logic about changing only one parameter at a time, etc... But I don't see myself going as far as he does with measuring patch thickness and weighing balls, at least not with this rifle.

View attachment 80580

I have a Pedersoli .45 cal flintlock. I shoot round balls with lubed patches, Same as you! I'm getting groups out to 100 yards with 60 grain loads. I think "the real secret" is what you do between shots! I swab with a commercially available solvent coated patch then dry patch! The only thing I'm adding this year is a drop funnel!

 

[renegadehunter]

I absolutely would not file on the front sight until a tighter group is found, and after testing at a minimum of 50 yards.

Get some sand bags or some type of a better rest. You may have a combo that will put them all into a ragged hole at 25 yards already and the lack of a good rest is the main issue. I sandbag both ends of the stock when looking for tiny groups on paper.

Some seem to never have problems with prelubed store bought patches but I sure did. Very inconsistent for me and I've never had so many fliers out of the main group as when I was using them. I might see one package give me great accuracy, then the next would double the group sizes and throw fliers way out of the group. Getting old ones was a very real thing in my area.

I've had zero trouble using store bought patches that are unlubed and then I lube them myself.

Dutch's lubing method worked very well for me when I tried it. Castor oil / denatured alcohol or Ballistol / water both shot well for me. Mine preferred 6:1.
Take a look at your spent patches when there is a cease fire, they tell a lot about your patch and ball combo. Center should be intact with no holes of any kind. Frayed edges is common. If the rifle is brand spanking new, then it is common for some sharp edges to cause patch damage. Some just keep shooting and let them smooth out that way, and some will polish them out. Need to look at spent patches to know if this is happening or not.

In my rifle, it is no comparison in groups sizes if I swab vs. not swabbing (cleaning patch between shots). Swabbing hands down gives me much better groups. If you weren't swabbing between shots give it a try next time to see if your rifle prefers it. Be aware, swabbing with too tight of a jag/patch combo will push fouling down into the flame channel and give you fail to fire issues. The combo should be loose enough that it goes down the fouled bore smoothly and then bunches up and pulls the fouling back out. Or just pop a cap after swabbing to make sure it's clear.

 

[Ben Meyer]

I swab between shots as well. Ill fire a 40gr fouling shot first, take a patch, 3 mist squirts of homemade moose milk out of a tiny spray bottle on it(makes it just damp), once down and back out. Load, shoot, repeat.

Ive never sandbags the buttstock when bench shooting. I use a commercial rest up front, but still shoulder the rifle. Maybe ill try sandbags on both ends.

 

[rafterob]

For sighting purposes your ball and patch combo are fine, don't mess with that yet. Next time out start with that 90 grains again and shoot 5 shots. Then up it to 95 and shoot 5. If the 95 shoots higher and still a good group try 100 and see if that is even better. My guess is you will find that 90 grain load